Gender Discussion #69

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I think the gender debate suffers from having every logical fallacy and dishonest debating tactic that exists being thrown at it. It’s what you have to do when you’re defending a logically inconsistent worldview that’s long on emotion and short on facts. The sad thing is how many people fall for it, or don’t feel equipped to challenge it when they see it.

Thank god for this thread at the moment, I’m fizzing angry about how little of a tit everyone from the IOC down to some rando on my friends FB feed gives a tit about women’s sports ☹️
 
MmmB777 said:
Not sure I’m going to express this properly but here goes..
I think the treatment of these boys with ambiguous/underdeveloped genitalia is in itself misogynistic.
Women don’t equal…lacking. We are not just men that are lacking. Why does our biology truly mean nothing. Our unique health experiences and our biological material reality mean nothing. Don’t have a penis? Oh you can just be a women then.

I’ve just been rereading about Sophie Ottaway who was born male with disfigured genitalia. They took away the male genitals (including perfectly healthy testes) and fashioned a hole. Sophie describes the “vagina” as plopping out in the nappy. The doctors put it back inside the baby and then sealed the hole shut. Sophie in adult life then had brown ooze and suffered sepsis. The medical pathway they put Sophie on affected their whole life.

Putting a hole into a person = female. What can that hole do? Well nothing except nearly kill you in this case. To me it means that women are really just seen as a receptacle for a penis. You’re a hole. That’s the function that makes you a woman apparently.

I don’t know why some women can’t see that this isn’t a fight for “bathrooms and sports” (as Rob Delaney mockingly labelled it) it is a fight for our material reality and a place in the world where we are not just humans that are lacking being men. Our reality as women means something. Not a thought in a man’s head. Not a hole. Not the absence of male. Not something obtained by outfits or haircuts. Not being constantly told to make our space, reality and existence in this World smaller and smaller.
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Oh god you are so right. Depressingly so 😩
 
It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on, especially the bit about ‘embracing her’. I bet she was getting threats from captured sponsors who have conflated the issue with ‘transphobia’.

‘All this controversy makes me sad,’ she told Gazzetta dello Sport. ‘I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.’
Carini, 25, also expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.
‘It wasn't something I intended to do,’ she said. ‘Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.’
She added that if she met Khelif again, she would ‘embrace her’. :(

Meanwhile, Luca Hamori who is due to face Khelif today, posted the following picture on social media

1722667002322.png




https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline
 
Vanelope said:
I’m hearing a lot of ‘we should all be kind and I feel threatened people aren’t as kind as me’

I don’t think people on this thread are being mean, I do think we have a variety of patience levels with being told we are not appraising the situation properly when most of us have spent months/years learning about how men have infiltrated women’s spaces and sports.

And yeah - no women have XY chromosomes when they want to compete in combat sports.
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This is the crux of the problem. Facts just don't matter to some people. I was explaining what DSD is to my daughter yesterday and even though I said that I felt sorry for anyone growing up thinking they're the other sex that still wasn't good enough for her. She stomped around saying what people feel is more important 😄
 
Metropolis said:
It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on, especially the bit about ‘embracing her’. I bet she was getting threats from captured sponsors who have conflated the issue with ‘transphobia’.

‘All this controversy makes me sad,’ she told Gazzetta dello Sport. ‘I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.’
Carini, 25, also expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.
‘It wasn't something I intended to do,’ she said. ‘Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.’
She added that if she met Khelif again, she would ‘embrace her’. :(

Meanwhile, Luca Hamori who is due to face Khelif today, posted the following picture on social media

View attachment 3089182 q



https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline
Click to expand...
We will she how brave she feels once she gets a few punches to the head.
 
Metropolis said:
It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on, especially the bit about ‘embracing her’. I bet she was getting threats from captured sponsors who have conflated the issue with ‘transphobia’.

‘All this controversy makes me sad,’ she told Gazzetta dello Sport. ‘I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.’
Carini, 25, also expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.
‘It wasn't something I intended to do,’ she said. ‘Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.’
She added that if she met Khelif again, she would ‘embrace her’. :(

Meanwhile, Luca Hamori who is due to face Khelif today, posted the following picture on social media

View attachment 3089182 q



https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline
Click to expand...

I looked at her insta last night and couldn’t see any stories so I’m wondering if she was already told to delete them. Possible they had just expired past 24hrs. IOC will be furious about it.
 
MmmB777 said:
Not sure I’m going to express this properly but here goes..
I think the treatment of these boys with ambiguous/underdeveloped genitalia is in itself misogynistic.
Women don’t equal…lacking. We are not just men that are lacking. Why does our biology truly mean nothing. Our unique health experiences and our biological material reality mean nothing. Don’t have a penis? Oh you can just be a women then.

I’ve just been rereading about Sophie Ottaway who was born male with disfigured genitalia. They took away the male genitals (including perfectly healthy testes) and fashioned a hole. Sophie describes the “vagina” as plopping out in the nappy. The doctors put it back inside the baby and then sealed the hole shut. Sophie in adult life then had brown ooze and suffered sepsis. The medical pathway they put Sophie on affected their whole life.

Putting a hole into a person = female. What can that hole do? Well nothing except nearly kill you in this case. To me it means that women are really just seen as a receptacle for a penis. You’re a hole. That’s the function that makes you a woman apparently.

I don’t know why some women can’t see that this isn’t a fight for “bathrooms and sports” (as Rob Delaney mockingly labelled it) it is a fight for our material reality and a place in the world where we are not just humans that are lacking being men. Our reality as women means something. Not a thought in a man’s head. Not a hole. Not the absence of male. Not something obtained by outfits or haircuts. Not being constantly told to make our space, reality and existence in this World smaller and smaller.
Click to expand...
A friend of a friend of my daughter had a baby with ambiguous genitalia recently. It was a little while before the sex was confirmed. I assume they did a swab test before confirming the sex of the baby, who has/will have some surgery to align with their sex. She’s a girl, so I don’t know whether it was an enlarged clitoris, or a lack of labia etc.
 
Dinate said:
This really is an excellent article. Janice Turner should forward it to her fellow journalist Zoe Williams at the Guardian who I've just seen talking complete nonsense on this matter on the Sky News paper review. She stated, with no authority, that Khelif has a vagina, uterus and ovaries. Then said no-one including the two athletes know what tests the IBA used to make their decision: again citing no authority for this claim and rounding up her ignorance in typical Guardian style by condemning everyone who says that Khelif and the Lin should not be competing as 'right-wing'.

Poor Alex Dean, who I generally don't have much time for, was shouted down by Williams as he tried to explain the situation as Janice Turner has done. He even said that her own newspaper had quoted the IBA president saying in 2023 that DNA tests had shown that they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from being eligible in the female category. Williams wasn't having any of it, continuing to say that the fighters didn't know on what basis they had been banned.

In the end the conversation moved on, but it infuriated me that Williams was taking the typical Guardian, 'progressive' argument of throwing the accusation of 'right wing' in lieu of a cogent argument. And more disappointingly, asserting things with absolutely no back-up e.g that Khelif and Lin have female sex organs and even more ludicrously that they didn't know what tests had been used by the IBA. If that were true, surely they would have appealed against against what would have been a completely arbitrary decision to ban them?

It's frustrating that Williams was allowed to go on tv and make false statements and unfortunately Isabel Joseph clearly hadn't read enough to be able to correct her and confirm that Alex Dean was correct in what he was saying - even about the Guardian itself quoting what the IBA had said. Really poor journalism - but completely as you'd expect from a Guardian writer.
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How I long to return to those innocent times when we just laughed at the Guardian ("Grauniad") for the typos - now They don't make mistakes with spelling but instead they ignore, obfuscate and mangle facts.
 
Scotch Mist said:
This is the crux of the problem. Facts just don't matter to some people. I was explaining what DSD is to my daughter yesterday and even though I said that I felt sorry for anyone growing up thinking they're the other sex that still wasn't good enough for her. She stomped around saying what people feel is more important 😄
Click to expand...
Ask her what about how the opposition boxers feel when they been battered!
 
Metropolis said:
It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on, especially the bit about ‘embracing her’. I bet she was getting threats from captured sponsors who have conflated the issue with ‘transphobia’.

‘All this controversy makes me sad,’ she told Gazzetta dello Sport. ‘I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.’
Carini, 25, also expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.
‘It wasn't something I intended to do,’ she said. ‘Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.’
She added that if she met Khelif again, she would ‘embrace her’. :(

Meanwhile, Luca Hamori who is due to face Khelif today, posted the following picture on social media

View attachment 3089182 q



https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline
Click to expand...

If ever a picture painted a thousand words …
 
IdeletedbutI'mbackagain said:
I see it on Tattle all the time, where you post an opinion on something and then someone replies with something totally unrelated that you didn't even say ie "it's wrong to kick puppies, anyone who thinks this is okay needs to be imprisoned" and everyone piles on, likes it and fawns over them and your left with the reputation of being a puppy kicker when all you said is you didn't like people not picking up their dogs tit. What's the word for that!?
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This also sounds similar to the “straw man fallacy”
1722668376901.png
 
Metropolis said:
Institutionally captured.
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“In many countries, speculation about women’s gender identity or sex characteristics can put their lives at risk."

So stop the speculation, IOC - do the cheek swabs, then no-one needs to speculate. The authorities will know, and those people "whose lives are at risk" can just quietly retire from the arena. No adverse publicity at all.

This simple, non-invasive test will also prevent other lives from being put at risk - WOMEN'S LIVES.
 
Metropolis said:
It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on, especially the bit about ‘embracing her’. I bet she was getting threats from captured sponsors who have conflated the issue with ‘transphobia’.

‘All this controversy makes me sad,’ she told Gazzetta dello Sport. ‘I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.’
Carini, 25, also expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.
‘It wasn't something I intended to do,’ she said. ‘Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.’
She added that if she met Khelif again, she would ‘embrace her’. :(

Meanwhile, Luca Hamori who is due to face Khelif today, posted the following picture on social media

View attachment 3089182 q



https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline
Click to expand...

I wonder Khelif will lose today.

Winning would catalyse a further round of public discussion and scrutiny that many people will not be keen to have happen.

I can’t watch as I’m currently abroad and have limited tv access, but even if I could watch I don’t know enough about boxing to be able to ascertain whether a noticeable change of performance level would be discernible. However, there will of course be many people watching with sufficient knowledge of boxing to ascertain this.

You know, if I was globally suspected of cheating my way to an Olympic medal on account of a DNA issue, I’d release the results of a cheek swab test to shut down any unfounded allegations and allow the focus to swing back to the sport itself. But that’s just me. Others will of course choose to handle things in a different way, as is their right. 🤷‍♀️
 
ButtonDownTheHutches said:
I wonder Khelif will lose today.

Winning would catalyse a further round of public discussion and scrutiny that many people will not be keen to have happen.

I can’t watch as I’m currently abroad and have limited tv access, but even if I could watch I don’t know enough about boxing to be able to ascertain whether a noticeable change of performance level would be discernible. However, there will of course be many people watching with sufficient knowledge of boxing to ascertain this.

You know, if I was globally suspected of cheating my way to an Olympic medal on account of a DNA issue, I’d release the results of a cheek swab test to shut down any unfounded allegations and allow the focus to swing back to the sport itself. But that’s just me. Others will of course choose to handle things in a different way, as is their right. 🤷‍♀️
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I feel like if he loses people will be “see, she doesn’t have an advantage, Carini is just a sore loser” and if he wins this whole sorry, dangerous saga rumbles on. The difference between opponents wasn’t as marked in Lin Yu-Ting’s match but I think that’s down to the weight category. There was still a longer reach on Lin, and difference in muscle mass distribution but the punches at this weight didn’t land as hard. Still felt sick to watch though.
 
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