Gender Discussion #69

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Em_gardener said:
www.thetimes.com

A simple cheek swab can protect female boxers

The IOC’s dangerous and misogynistic ideas about gender inclusion are to blame for the humiliation of Angela Carini
www.thetimes.com www.thetimes.com

This is a really good article.
Click to expand...

I hadn’t realised this

But at the 1996 Atlanta Games an IOC questionnaire asked female athletes if the cheek swab should continue (82 per cent said yes) and whether it made them “anxious” (94 per cent said no). Nonetheless the IOC ignored almost 1,000 elite women who replied and abolished cheek swabs for Sydney in 2000.

Tells you everything you need to know about the IOCs respect for women in sport.

Oh and just a reminder whilst people try to discredit the IBA and want to blindly trust the IOC. The IOC are the ones that have allowed a convicted paedophile sex offender to compete in their Olympic Games this year. Think again about their ethics and integrity and willingness to protect other competitors. A number of Olympic athletes this year are children.
 
Mugglewump said:
He.
He's male, and beat up a woman on the world stage.

Why are people defending this?
Click to expand...

Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish leading to reports from a dubious source that she was tested and found to have XY chromosomes and a slightly higher level of testosterone than average for a woman...none of which makes her a man anyway.
 
Knight of Galador said:
Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish.
Click to expand...
He was NOT born female. He was born male with deformed genitalia.
 
Knight of Galador said:
Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish.
Click to expand...
Khelif was born with ambiguous genitalia. No one has said he’s transgender. We have said he’s a man with a DSD.

If you’re going to plop on a thread, at least have the respect to read it first. Otherwise you can just duck off for being rude.
 
Em_gardener said:
www.thetimes.com

A simple cheek swab can protect female boxers

The IOC’s dangerous and misogynistic ideas about gender inclusion are to blame for the humiliation of Angela Carini
www.thetimes.com www.thetimes.com

This is a really good article.
Click to expand...

This really is an excellent article. Janice Turner should forward it to her fellow journalist Zoe Williams at the Guardian who I've just seen talking complete nonsense on this matter on the Sky News paper review. She stated, with no authority, that Khelif has a vagina, uterus and ovaries. Then said no-one including the two athletes know what tests the IBA used to make their decision: again citing no authority for this claim and rounding up her ignorance in typical Guardian style by condemning everyone who says that Khelif and the Lin should not be competing as 'right-wing'.

Poor Alex Dean, who I generally don't have much time for, was shouted down by Williams as he tried to explain the situation as Janice Turner has done. He even said that her own newspaper had quoted the IBA president saying in 2023 that DNA tests had shown that they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from being eligible in the female category. Williams wasn't having any of it, continuing to say that the fighters didn't know on what basis they had been banned.

In the end the conversation moved on, but it infuriated me that Williams was taking the typical Guardian, 'progressive' argument of throwing the accusation of 'right wing' in lieu of a cogent argument. And more disappointingly, asserting things with absolutely no back-up e.g that Khelif and Lin have female sex organs and even more ludicrously that they didn't know what tests had been used by the IBA. If that were true, surely they would have appealed against against what would have been a completely arbitrary decision to ban them?

It's frustrating that Williams was allowed to go on tv and make false statements and unfortunately Isabel Joseph clearly hadn't read enough to be able to correct her and confirm that Alex Dean was correct in what he was saying - even about the Guardian itself quoting what the IBA had said. Really poor journalism - but completely as you'd expect from a Guardian writer.
 
Tofino said:
I hadn’t realised this

But at the 1996 Atlanta Games an IOC questionnaire asked female athletes if the cheek swab should continue (82 per cent said yes) and whether it made them “anxious” (94 per cent said no). Nonetheless the IOC ignored almost 1,000 elite women who replied and abolished cheek swabs for Sydney in 2000.

Tells you everything you need to know about the IOCs respect for women in sport.

Oh and just a reminder whilst people try to discredit the IBA and want to blindly trust the IOC. The IOC are the ones that have allowed a convicted paedophile sex offender to compete in their Olympic Games this year. Think again about their ethics and integrity and willingness to protect other competitors. A number of Olympic athletes this year are children.
Click to expand...

It was the IOC’s decision (around 2017-ish, IIRC) to allow men who had undergone no form of surgical procedure but who had maintained their testosterone at a reduced level - albeit a level higher than was attainable by the majority of biologically female athletes - for a certain length of time (2yrs, I think) to compete in female categories that peaked me instantly.
 
Dinate said:
This really is an excellent article. Janice Turner should forward it to her fellow journalist Zoe Williams at the Guardian who I've just seen talking complete nonsense on this matter on the Sky News paper review. She stated, with no authority, that Khelif has a vagina, uterus and ovaries. Then said no-one including the two athletes know what tests the IBA used to make their decision: again citing no authority for this claim and rounding up her ignorance in typical Guardian style by condemning everyone who says that Khelif and the Lin should not be competing as 'right-wing'.

Poor Alex Dean, who I generally don't have much time for, was shouted down by Williams as he tried to explain the situation as Janice Turner has done. He even said that her own newspaper had quoted the IBA president saying in 2023 that DNA tests had shown that they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from being eligible in the female category. Williams wasn't having any of it, continuing to say that the fighters didn't know on what basis they had been banned.

In the end the conversation moved on, but it infuriated me that Williams was taking the typical Guardian, 'progressive' argument of throwing the accusation of 'right wing' in lieu of a cogent argument. And more disappointingly, asserting things with absolutely no back-up e.g that Khelif and Lin have female sex organs and even more ludicrously that they didn't know what tests had been used by the IBA. If that were true, surely they would have appealed against against what would have been a completely arbitrary decision to ban them?

It's frustrating that Williams was allowed to go on tv and make false statements and unfortunately Isabel Joseph clearly hadn't read enough to be able to correct her and confirm that Alex Dean was correct in what he was saying - even about the Guardian itself quoting what the IBA had said. Really poor journalism - but completely as you'd expect from a Guardian writer.
Click to expand...
Zoe Williams is a)very stupid and b) even a bigger dick panderer than Caitlin Moran which is going some.
 
Knight of Galador said:
Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish leading to reports from a dubious source that she was tested and found to have XY chromosomes and a slightly higher level of testosterone than average for a woman...none of which makes her a man anyway.
Click to expand...

Presumably? What is the basis for that presumption?

Where has anyone said that Khelif is a transwoman? The discussion has been quite clear that Khelif is believed to be a man with dsd.

In what sense does having xy chromosomes — i.e. being genetically male — mean that someone is not a man?
 
Years ago I saw a programme with a Beitish woman how found out that they had been born with DSD (I believe at the time of the programme they were called intersex). This person had been raised as female and married a man and considered themselves female. It was a shock when they found out that they were biologically a man.

I have every sympathy for people born with DSD like the boxers and Caster Semenya but the studies show that they are biologically male and have a biological advantage over biological women.

People say in sport the categories are male and female but I understand it is actually female and an ope category. Women could compete in the open category but they don't because they would NEVER win.

I believe that the boxers can identify and call themselves women but I do not believe that they should be competing against biological women in ANY sporting field.

I remember when Caster won the 800m at the Olympics, my mum and I looked at the three medalists and said they were all biological males and I believe it was found that they did all have DSD and that scouts went to poor areas searching out "girls" with these disorders to compete in sports.

As I said, I do have every sympathy for then but they should not be competing in the women's category.
 
Knight of Galador said:
Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.
Click to expand...

To borrow a phrase from Mumsnet, are you on glue?

How does one fail a “gender” test (a chromosome test that is) is they are truly female?

You are making too many presumptions, namely that an F marker on a birth certificate guarantees that someone has a female reproductive system.
 
Knight of Galador said:
Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish leading to reports from a dubious source that she was tested and found to have XY chromosomes and a slightly higher level of testosterone than average for a woman...none of which makes her a man anyway.
Click to expand...

Cis is a slur.

He was not born female. He's a male with a genetic abnormality. No one is saying he's trans.

You need to explain why he dropped his appeal of the IBA decision. If he were actually female, he would've appealed the IBA decision and won the case and none of this would be happening. So, why didn't he? Because when a person makes an appeal the results of their chromosomal test are made public. Kind of hard to insist on competing in women's boxing when the entire world knows exactly which chromosomal anomaly you have.
 
It just feels like nobody gives a duck about the safety of women. It's so disheartening to see something you think is wrong and to speak up and say something only to be dismissed and mocked as being a bigoted pearl clutcher.

I just feel like I'm being told to shut up like I was when I tried to tell people about the abuse I was suffering at home. Like I'm the one shattering everyones illusions of a fantasy and they resent me for it.
 
https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline

There was another trans boxer at the Olympics. A trans man who fought in the women's competition also. Hasn't had any hormone treatment or anything - just a social transition - so the fight was woman v woman with no cheating. Hergie thinks that xy people shouldn't be allowed in the women's competition! It's really annoyed the TRAs that a trans person has said this.
 
Em_gardener said:
https://www.12ft.io/https://www.dai...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline

There was another trans boxer at the Olympics. A trans man who fought in the women's competition also. Hasn't had any hormone treatment or anything - just a social transition - so the fight was woman v woman with no cheating. Hergie thinks that xy people shouldn't be allowed in the women's competition! It's really annoyed the TRAs that a trans person has said this.
Click to expand...
This gives me hope that I am not actually insane. I have no issue with a trans man competing with women as long as they haven't taken any hormones etc.
 
Knight of Galador said:
Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish leading to reports from a dubious source that she was tested and found to have XY chromosomes and a slightly higher level of testosterone than average for a woman...none of which makes her a man anyway.
Click to expand...

1) Literally no one in this thread has said he’s transgender. We are discussing the presence of biological males in sports. The fact that Khelif’s sex was not observable at birth due to an Intersex condition that only affects males does not mean he is female.
2) Cisgender is a made-up term used by those beholden to gender ideology.
3) It wasn’t a testosterone test that determined Khelif did not meet the criteria to take part in the Women’s World Championships. As stated above, Khelif did not appeal after failing to meet the IBAs eligibility criteria.
4) If you RTFT, you will see the discussions here use a wide variety of sources to evidence the points people are making.
 
Libertine1975 said:
Years ago I saw a programme with a Beitish woman how found out that they had been born with DSD (I believe at the time of the programme they were called intersex). This person had been raised as female and married a man and considered themselves female. It was a shock when they found out that they were biologically a man.

I have every sympathy for people born with DSD like the boxers and Caster Semenya but the studies show that they are biologically male and have a biological advantage over biological women.

People say in sport the categories are male and female but I understand it is actually female and an ope category. Women could compete in the open category but they don't because they would NEVER win.

I believe that the boxers can identify and call themselves women but I do not believe that they should be competing against biological women in ANY sporting field.

I remember when Caster won the 800m at the Olympics, my mum and I looked at the three medalists and said they were all biological males and I believe it was found that they did all have DSD and that scouts went to poor areas searching out "girls" with these disorders to compete in sports.

As I said, I do have every sympathy for then but they should not be competing in the women's category.
Click to expand...

I did/do have sympathy for them but only to a point. It must be horrible to have such a disorder and for it to be played out so publicly. However my sympathy ends at the point where they still take part in female sport knowing they are male irrespective of how they identify.

as for the 2016 800 m I remember watching it with my then 7 year old son. He is autistic and has zero filter…he said “why are there men in the women’s race?” He was peaked before I was. Out of the mouths of babes and all that
 
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