Real Life Crime and Murder #15

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Leo100 said:
I've been wondering what a motive might be and never thought of this. Tbh I was surprised about her trip to ibiza.

Om another note what prison will she go to and I'm guessing she will be isolated for her "protection"? other prisoners will be queueing up to get to her
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The independent said she will most likely be housed in hmp low newton which has a mixer of criminals. Rose west was there at one point.
 
GeminiMoon said:
No children and no romantic relationships of any note over the years.

On one of her infamous post it notes, she wrote something eluding to her dismay that she will never have a family - it’s been put forward that this could be a possible motive.

I could well imagine her seething with jealousy over seemingly ‘perfect’ couples/families and wanting to spoil it all for them, out of spite and envy, while remaining a heroine throughout the official narrative.

She was awkward and probably excruciatingly uncomfortable around men, set in her ways and her foibles and the comfort of her own company. She knew she’d never actualise the perfect dream family she wanted.
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wasn’t she having an affair (or at least was very flirty/besotted) with a married doctor?

the BBC ran an article on the case and mentioned it, particularly because it was one of the few times Lucy Letby became emotional - when this Dr gave evidence. The reported noted that she seemed to have “pangs of longing”

www.bbc.co.uk

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court - BBC News

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
cee-bee said:
wasn’t she having an affair (or at least was very flirty/besotted) with a married doctor?

the BBC ran an article on the case and mentioned it, particularly because it was one of the few times Lucy Letby became emotional - when this Dr gave evidence. The reported noted that she seemed to have “pangs of longing”

www.bbc.co.uk

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court - BBC News

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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It’s been suggested it could have been an affair but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of that, unless things are being held back. The text messages between them are pretty innocuous. I get the impression it was unrequited love on her behalf and the doctor was flattered and/or maybe had a bit of a soft spot for her but nothing more. I also get the impression she’d freak out in an actual, real life relationship outside her daydreams.
 
Ubu1uk said:
I don’t understand why the mother said she had done it and she should be arrested? Did she know her daughter was guilty because if she thought she was innocent surely her instinct would be to get the best possible defence for her.
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It was just something said in despair - “take me instead!”

Like when a parent loses a child and they say they wish they could have died instead.

She didn’t shout that Lucy should be arrested, she said she (the mother) should be arrested.
 
GeminiMoon said:
It’s been suggested it could have been an affair but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of that, unless things are being held back. The text messages between them are pretty innocuous. I get the impression it was unrequited love on her behalf and the doctor was flattered and/or maybe had a bit of a soft spot for her but nothing more. I also get the impression she’d freak out in an actual, real life relationship outside her daydreams.
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I think there must have been more stuff to indicate it was a full blown affair said/shown in court that we haven’t heard because almost every outlet is reporting it as that and even the BBC are heavily hinting - the prosecution saying he was her boyfriend, the mention of texts that to me implies there are unreleased ones.
 
CabalofBolorneaise said:
I think there must have been more stuff to indicate it was a full blown affair said/shown in court that we haven’t heard because almost every outlet is reporting it as that and even the BBC are heavily hinting - the prosecution saying he was her boyfriend, the mention of texts that to me implies there are unreleased ones.
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I think there must’ve been more texts. The prosecution alleged he was her boyfriend, which makes me think there is more behind the scenes.

i guess it’s not really evidence of anything if they did have an affair. It wasn’t part of the case against her, just one theory as part of several that they offered as an explanation for her motive at the end of the trial. And I imagine that they felt the dr was still owed some privacy, especially whilst having the idea that she murdered babies potentially for his attention, now hanging over him. What a cross to bear.

I could equally believe it was just a bit of a flirty relationship and she was obsessive over it. She seemed very immature emotionally that way, like a teenage girl with a crush.

hard to believe that despite having months of evidence of killing babies and grieving parents laid out before her, she only really seemed to get emotionally over this doctor. That’s just… psychotic.
 
He left chocolates for her during her shift, he offered her his car whilst he was working so she didn’t have to walk home and he would collect it from hers at the end of his shift, he sometimes drove her home himself, they would go for walks together, they messaged each other for hours on end, not just work related, they were in London together with a second trip planned just before she was arrested, they went for meals together, he disclosed information to her from doctors meetings that he absolutely should not have that was about her and the babies. He was full of compliments towards her ‘i’d trust you with my own children’ and some other cringey stuff about working with her and making a good team.

There has been nothing reported that suggests physical but as a bare minimum this was an emotional affair. I would not accept this kind of behaviour from any partner of mine as ‘just friends’.
 
cee-bee said:
I think there must’ve been more texts. The prosecution alleged he was her boyfriend, which makes me think there is more behind the scenes.

i guess it’s not really evidence of anything if they did have an affair. It wasn’t part of the case against her, just one theory as part of several that they offered as an explanation for her motive at the end of the trial. And I imagine that they felt the dr was still owed some privacy, especially whilst having the idea that she murdered babies potentially for his attention, now hanging over him. What a cross to bear.

I could equally believe it was just a bit of a flirty relationship and she was obsessive over it. She seemed very immature emotionally that way, like a teenage girl with a crush.

hard to believe that despite having months of evidence of killing babies and grieving parents laid out before her, she only really seemed to get emotionally over this doctor. That’s just… psychotic.
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I wonder if they kept the privacy for the doc because of his wife and children. Imagine the way you find out your husband/father has been having an affair is when the woman he was having it with is arrested for murdering babies in a hospital, horrendous for them.

I do personally believe it was an affair, but I think LL probably thought it was very very serious whereas the doctor thought it was a bit of fun and had no intention of forming an actual relationship with her.

It’s also understandable he’d want to lie about it now and minimise it as much as possible in order to distance himself, but from what we’ve heard I find it really hard to believe it wasn’t an affair and it really sounds to me like there was more said in court to emphasise it that we’ve not heard.
 
LouBug19 said:
We obviously don't know the full extent of the affair, was it full blown or just a emotional one? She seems to crave attention (as most psychopaths do) and I still can't believe she won't be there for sentencing tomorrow. I wonder if her parents will turn up or not now.
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Why won't she be there? Can you just choose not to be or is she sick or something?
 
orangehead said:
Why won't she be there? Can you just choose not to be or is she sick or something?
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She’s refused to go. She’s already said (via her barrister) that she isn’t going to be there.

She also didn’t appear for some of the verdicts.

So she gets transported to the court on the day, but then won’t leave the holding cells to go to the dock.

The judge will sentence and address her as if she’s there and she’ll be given a written copy of the sentencing (… mind blank on the word!)
 
InTheDollsHouse said:
She’s refused to go. She’s already said (via her barrister) that she isn’t going to be there.

She also didn’t appear for some of the verdicts.

So she gets transported to the court on the day, but then won’t leave the holding cells to go to the dock.

The judge will sentence and address her as if she’s there and she’ll be given a written copy of the sentencing (… mind blank on the word!)
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Thank you. I didn't realise you could refuse to appear, I've only heard of it happening when the person has been ill.
 
Phil Anne Throw Pee said:
I don't buy the theory about her being smothered by her parents, I think she was born psychotic. It happens and there's no rhyme or reason behind it.
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there is well documented and researched reasons behind it.
People are rarely just “born” wrong. People may have genetic predispositions towards pyschopathy, sociopathy or any other personality disorder. But childhood trauma is the “trigger” that makes it manifest.

childhood trauma doesn’t have to be abuse, or neglect either. The most privileged households in the world can feature trauma. (Look at Princess Diana). Being a helicopter parent can be traumatic. In can rob a child of their sense of self. It is a form of control in its most insidious form. The Krays were supposedly narcissists because their mother smothered them.

we like to tell ourselves that people like Lucy Letby are the exception. But she isn’t. The circumstances in which she put herself are exceptional, but her lack of empathy is not.

I worked in the criminal justice system and, in theory, there are more psychopaths, sociopaths etc present because they are individuals more inclined towards antisocial and criminal behaviour. There are a LOT of psychopaths out there. They have good jobs, they look outwardly very normal. Some are exceptionally charming and pleasant to be around. Scratch the surface though, and you see the reality behind the facade they build. And when you become attuned to them, you realise in society it’s not at all a rare occurance. Childhood trauma is abundant. Id say it’s likely to be an undiagnosed epidemic, because these individuals are the least likely to seek medical help or diagnosis.

it frustrates me when people shrug it off as an exceptional occurance, as if it’s something we have no agency over. It’s not rare, and it can be prevented. It can absolutely be prevented.

it can be prevented through better education, support and awareness spread through society. Maybe it should be sort of school curriculums. Maybe it should feature in prenatal classes.

it can be prevented through robust social welfare. Good provisions for women escaping abusive homes with their children. More strenuous protection and rigid laws safeguarding children. By being open minded and progressive as a society (it’s been theorised that one of the reasons Ian Brady turned out the way he did, began when his mother left him as a baby. She couldn’t care for him because she was an underpaid single mother, and because of the stigma attached. Young babies and children who are separated from their mothers at a young age, suffer hugely from that. It’s hugely traumatic for them. Had she been given a living wage and if there had been less judgement in society… the moors murders might never have happened.)

it can be prevented by making sure children get access to basic healthcare, education and food. If anyone believes society shouldn’t be providing free meals for kids… well I have some bad news for you. If you think it’s expensive providing free meals to children, then you don’t want to know how expensive it is to take these kids through NHS and mental health facilities when they are older. How expensive it is when they become reliant on welfare because they aren’t fully functioning adults. How expensive it is for them to be taken through the criminal justice system. Trust me, school meals for kids is an investment in society.
 
cee-bee said:
there is well documented and researched reasons behind it.
People are rarely just “born” wrong. People may have genetic predispositions towards pyschopathy, sociopathy or any other personality disorder. But childhood trauma is the “trigger” that makes it manifest.

childhood trauma doesn’t have to be abuse, or neglect either. The most privileged households in the world can feature trauma. (Look at Princess Diana). Being a helicopter parent can be traumatic. In can rob a child of their sense of self. It is a form of control in its most insidious form. The Krays were supposedly narcissists because their mother smothered them.

we like to tell ourselves that people like Lucy Letby are the exception. But she isn’t. The circumstances in which she put herself are exceptional, but her lack of empathy is not.

I worked in the criminal justice system and, in theory, there are more psychopaths, sociopaths etc present because they are individuals more inclined towards antisocial and criminal behaviour. There are a LOT of psychopaths out there. They have good jobs, they look outwardly very normal. Some are exceptionally charming and pleasant to be around. Scratch the surface though, and you see the reality behind the facade they build. And when you become attuned to them, you realise in society it’s not at all a rare occurance. Childhood trauma is abundant. Id say it’s likely to be an undiagnosed epidemic, because these individuals are the least likely to seek medical help or diagnosis.

it frustrates me when people shrug it off as an exceptional occurance, as if it’s something we have no agency over. It’s not rare, and it can be prevented. It can absolutely be prevented.

it can be prevented through better education, support and awareness spread through society. Maybe it should be sort of school curriculums. Maybe it should feature in prenatal classes.

it can be prevented through robust social welfare. Good provisions for women escaping abusive homes with their children. More strenuous protection and rigid laws safeguarding children. By being open minded and progressive as a society (it’s been theorised that one of the reasons Ian Brady turned out the way he did, began when his mother left him as a baby. She couldn’t care for him because she was an underpaid single mother, and because of the stigma attached. Young babies and children who are separated from their mothers at a young age, suffer hugely from that. It’s hugely traumatic for them. Had she been given a living wage and if there had been less judgement in society… the moors murders might never have happened.)

it can be prevented by making sure children get access to basic healthcare, education and food. If anyone believes society shouldn’t be providing free meals for kids… well I have some bad news for you. If you think it’s expensive providing free meals to children, then you don’t want to know how expensive it is to take these kids through NHS and mental health facilities when they are older. How expensive it is when they become reliant on welfare because they aren’t fully functioning adults. How expensive it is for them to be taken through the criminal justice system. Trust me, school meals for kids is an investment in society.
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Sorry, struggling to see how you've leapt from me saying she was born with a personality disorder to a rant about free school meals. We all experience childhood trauma to some degree, life is a traumatic experience all the time throughout life. I had a crappy childhood but have never murdered anyone and never would. It is my OPINION that she was born this way. I am not an expert and have never claimed to be, but I can assure you I am very much an advocate of free school meals.
 
orangehead said:
Thank you. I didn't realise you could refuse to appear, I've only heard of it happening when the person has been ill.
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Thomas Cashman who shot Olivia Pratt-Korbel refused to appear for sentencing too.

Big enough to shoot and kill an innocent little girl / murder NICU babies but not show their face to receive justice.

The judge can, at their discretion, add (I think) 2 years to sentencing for it but hopefully LL will receive a whole life order anyway.
 
Phil Anne Throw Pee said:
Sorry, struggling to see how you've leapt from me saying she was born with a personality disorder to a rant about free school meals. We all experience childhood trauma to some degree, life is a traumatic experience all the time throughout life. I had a crappy childhood but have never murdered anyone and never would. It is my OPINION that she was born this way. I am not an expert and have never claimed to be, but I can assure you I am very much an advocate of free school meals.
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because people are not born with personality disorders. That’s my point.
 
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