Real Life Crime and Murder #15

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I think she did it because she loved drama and being the centre of it. I think she harmed any more babies but most survived because she ‘flew in and rescued them’. She loved being regarded as a good nurse who was amazing at her job. But I also think that eventually she needed more.. more drama, more deterioration. That’s when babies started dying. She was an addict who couldn’t control herself anymore.

And I also think there was an element of targeting particular families/parents. I bet she was a vengeful type.
 
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Free school meals is irrelevant. That's the part I was querying. You did say that people have 'genetic predispositions' to certain conditions which means they do have a part of that in their genetic make up when they are born.

it’s not at all irrelevant, because there are strong links between poverty in childhood (poverty in general, actually) and mental health issues later in life. My point is that society stepping in and providing for children will pay off later on, because we reduce disorders in the overpopulation.

someone being born with a genetic predisposition to psychopathy is NOT the same as someone being born with psychopathy.

some people are born with a genetic predisposition for a lot of things - diabetes, blood pressure, cancer. But with preventative measures these can often be avoided, or at a minimum, monitored and controlled.

Some people argue that psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made, based on people with psychopathy being born with parts of the brain underdeveloped. But my understanding is that most medical professionals hesitate to diagnose psychopathy/sociopathy and instead diagnose the behaviours as part of an antisocial personality disorder given the overlap between the symptoms. Also worth nothing that childhood abuse/trauma can cause parts of the brain to change - it’s not fully understood. And the majority of psychopaths are unlikely to ever enter any type of research - we just get the very worst examples who enter the criminal justice system or become famous for being exceptionally cruel and awful.
 
it’s not at all irrelevant, because there are strong links between poverty in childhood (poverty in general, actually) and mental health issues later in life. My point is that society stepping in and providing for children will pay off later on, because we reduce disorders in the overpopulation.

someone being born with a genetic predisposition to psychopathy is NOT the same as someone being born with psychopathy.

some people are born with a genetic predisposition for a lot of things - diabetes, blood pressure, cancer. But with preventative measures these can often be avoided, or at a minimum, monitored and controlled.

Some people argue that psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made, based on people with psychopathy being born with parts of the brain underdeveloped. But my understanding is that most medical professionals hesitate to diagnose psychopathy/sociopathy and instead diagnose the behaviours as part of an antisocial personality disorder given the overlap between the symptoms. Also worth nothing that childhood abuse/trauma can cause parts of the brain to change - it’s not fully understood. And the majority of psychopaths are unlikely to ever enter any type of research - we just get the very worst examples who enter the criminal justice system or become famous for being exceptionally cruel and awful.


Yes, I see that, But by all accounts, Letby came from a middle class affluent family, so doesn't appear to be a factor in this case.
 
Yes, I see that, But by all accounts, Letby came from a middle class affluent family, so doesn't appear to be a factor in this case.

No but I didn’t say it was the only factor. I was speaking generally. In Letby’s case obviously poverty wasn’t the driving factor. But I’d bet my life on something else happening in that household. You can’t preempt individual cases but as a collective, we as a society, can make decisions which will have long term, intangible benefits, and will mitigate the risk of personality disorder manifesting in the general population.

Free school meals is just one out of a few I mentioned
 
Sorry, struggling to see how you've leapt from me saying she was born with a personality disorder to a rant about free school meals. We all experience childhood trauma to some degree, life is a traumatic experience all the time throughout life. I had a crappy childhood but have never murdered anyone and never would. It is my OPINION that she was born this way. I am not an expert and have never claimed to be, but I can assure you I am very much an advocate of free school meals.
You aren’t born with PD. Cee-bee’s tangent is explaining that Adverse Childhood Experience’s or trauma are what create these disorders in adults later in life.. PDs are maladaptive traits developed over time to cope with ACE or trauma as a child/young person. So whatever someone like Lucy may have as a diagnosis (if any as yet) that may go some way to explaining why she may have done this, may have developed as a response to her childhood.
I’d also say as much as you’ve never murdered someone, not everyone with PD or psychopathic or sociopathic traits murder anyone. Also a point Cee-bee makes
 
You aren’t born with PD. Cee-bee’s tangent is explaining that Adverse Childhood Experience’s or trauma are what create these disorders in adults later in life.. PDs are maladaptive traits developed over time to cope with ACE or trauma as a child/young person. So whatever someone like Lucy may have as a diagnosis (if any as yet) that may go some way to explaining why she may have done this, may have developed as a response to her childhood.
I’d also say as much as you’ve never murdered someone, not everyone with PD or psychopathic or sociopathic traits murder anyone. Also a point Cee-bee makes




Thanks for the explanation (genuine, not being an arse).
 
But I’d bet my life on something else happening in that household.

That’s an interesting theory. For all of LL’s beigeness and unremarkable demeanour, the one thing she seemed to struggle with is forming romantic relationships. This seems to be the one thing that marked out her personality as unusual. She clearly had a group of close, supportive friends, but there has never been any mention of a boyfriend at any point in her life?
 
I read that she always wanted to be a NICU nurse as she had been there herself as a sick baby. As she is also an only child I wonder if her parents put her on a pedestal and over indulged her.

I’ve known a few people who were not neglected as children and didn’t have any major trauma. They had loving parents who basically spoilt them and continued to into their adult life. Without appropriate boundaries in place they grew up not having consequences for behaviour and always getting their own way. When they became adults and real life kicked in they couldn’t handle not always being worshiped and everything going their way. They struggled to have authentic close relationships, due to their unrealistic expectations and lack of empathy because they were so self centred, lacked resilience, and thrive when there is drama in their life and they are the centre of attention and either the victim or the hero.
 
That’s an interesting theory. For all of LL’s beigeness and unremarkable demeanour, the one thing she seemed to struggle with is forming romantic relationships. This seems to be the one thing that marked out her personality as unusual. She clearly had a group of close, supportive friends, but there has never been any mention of a boyfriend at any point in her life?
She seems emotionally very immature. Didn’t she take a soft toy with her to court?
 
That’s an interesting theory. For all of LL’s beigeness and unremarkable demeanour, the one thing she seemed to struggle with is forming romantic relationships. This seems to be the one thing that marked out her personality as unusual. She clearly had a group of close, supportive friends, but there has never been any mention of a boyfriend at any point in her life?

i truly don’t see her lack of a boyfriend/serious romantic relationship as unusual tbh and i’m not sure why it’s being continually used as evidence that something was up. not aiming this at you OP, just a general observation from this and other threads where she’s being discussed.

it’s very possible to get to your mid/late twenties having not had a serious romantic relationship, for lots of reasons. i suppose it’s worthy of comment in her case because of what was going on between her and the married doctor but beyond that i wouldn’t say i find it “odd” as a stand-alone detail.
 
i truly don’t see her lack of a boyfriend/serious romantic relationship as unusual tbh and i’m not sure why it’s being continually used as evidence that something was up. not aiming this at you OP, just a general observation from this and other threads where she’s being discussed.

it’s very possible to get to your mid/late twenties having not had a serious romantic relationship, for lots of reasons. i suppose it’s worthy of comment in her case because of what was going on between her and the married doctor but beyond that i wouldn’t say i find it “odd” as a stand-alone detail.
Absolutely. Lots of people are happy being single and whilst it’s not the ‘norm’ I don’t think there is anything unhealthy about it. In fact I would argue that it’s unhealthier to jump from relationship to relationship as lots of people are too afraid to be alone.
 
It's also worthy of note that by explaining where these people come from we're not excusing them. It's not a pass to redemption. But if we learn and accept where they come from, we can help avoid the suffering of innocents in future. Letby had a choice, absolutely. She chose appallingly and it is entirely her own fault. However if we understand why some people are able to choose to do horrendous things we can try to nip it in the bud earlier so that fewer innocents are harmed. It's for the good of us all not to dismiss as "monsters" this people but to understand they are, terrifingly, human.

I don't think her lack of a boyfriend is a sign of anything, nor her soft toy. I have a dog I've had since I was born and I still sleep with it. I might well bring it into court were I in such a position although I'd put it in a bag probably. Mind you perhaps she's beyond feeling ashamed of it. Anyway just pointing out that I've also only had one boyfriend (am now in my mid 40s) and have comfort toy and am not a psychopath. I hope!

Also a great friend of mine is my age and has never had a romantic relationship. Not sure he's even slept with anyone. He's very good looking and a brilliant person, he's just not made that way I don't think. Not everyone is.
 
It's also worthy of note that by explaining where these people come from we're not excusing them. It's not a pass to redemption. But if we learn and accept where they come from, we can help avoid the suffering of innocents in future. Letby had a choice, absolutely. She chose appallingly and it is entirely her own fault. However if we understand why some people are able to choose to do horrendous things we can try to nip it in the bud earlier so that fewer innocents are harmed. It's for the good of us all not to dismiss as "monsters" this people but to understand they are, terrifingly, human.

I don't think her lack of a boyfriend is a sign of anything, nor her soft toy. I have a dog I've had since I was born and I still sleep with it. I might well bring it into court were I in such a position although I'd put it in a bag probably. Mind you perhaps she's beyond feeling ashamed of it. Anyway just pointing out that I've also only had one boyfriend (am now in my mid 40s) and have comfort toy and am not a psychopath. I hope!

Also a great friend of mine is my age and has never had a romantic relationship. Not sure he's even slept with anyone. He's very good looking and a brilliant person, he's just not made that way I don't think. Not everyone is.

agreed on all counts 💙 i didn’t have my first serious boyfriend until i was 25 and i too am hopefully not a psychopath. hopefully. LL also seemed to have a lot of close friends, including one who sat next to her parents in court on friday and another who chose her to be godmother to her child. so she certainly was able to have close relationships even if they weren’t romantic.

i do think in this case because it’s so awful and there’s absolutely no clear motive or reason people are gathering together any details they can but some of them are just so “normal” for a girl in her mid-twenties. i don’t know if we’ll ever truly know why, however much we try and psychoanalyse it.
 
This is speculation but I’d say that her parents idolised her as she is an only child and the father at least is an older parent.

She could do no wrong in their eyes and she was never held accountable for her mistakes (as indicated by her mother wailing for her to be arrested instead of her daughter).

Whenever something went wrong, they stepped in and picked up the pieces (as evidenced by their presence at meetings with work and the police, and her father straightening her teddies on her bed as she was arrested). Everything was always somebody else’s fault and there were no consequences to her actions.

She probably honed her ‘good girl’ persona while growing up at home and fulfilling the image and act her parents expected of her. She learnt to hide the unpleasant parts of her personality to manipulate outcomes in her favour at home, school, work and with friends. The chasm between her real self and her persona deepened as she got older and more frustrated with her life. And then she thought she could get away with murder (literally) and punish those who had what she wanted.
 
My mother is very narcissist and had a very controlling mother herself (my grandmother). Being too overprotective removes any sense of agency a child has over their lives. It’s natural as kids gradually get older to take on more responsibility. They might learn to feed themselves, to tie their shoelaces, to make their own snacks, to go to the cinema unattended… it’s a gradual process which normally, would create a sense of accomplishment, responsibility and confidence in a kid when done right.

If your parents never let you do your own thing… you never develop that sense of self, theoretically.

My grandmother was very controlling and narcissistic herself, but to look from the outside in, she was a devoted mother. She did a lot of harm (probably completely unintentionally) to my mother and her siblings. Who knows with Letby what her home like was like?

My thinking when I saw photos of her house/bedroom is that she was extremely, extremely immature. Her house was covered in cuddley toys and cliched slogans. Her room looked like a teen bedroom, frankly. I think that coupled with her lack of adult relationship … really feels like she was emotionally stunted or something.

Her obsession with the doctor was like a teenage girls crush. Hearts beside his name and stuff. It’s interesting that he was so much older (17 years IIRC). I’m not convinced it was a sexual relationship though. They both seemed to maintain it wasn’t, but it looked like it it was definitely inappropriate. I get the impression he could’ve been an older man who was flattered by a 20 something taking an interest in him, and maybe overstepped boundaries. In the BBC article I read, Letby seemed to acknowledge him as her boyfriend, but she explicitly called him her friend. It’s a weird one for sure.
 
My mother is very narcissist and had a very controlling mother herself (my grandmother). Being too overprotective removes any sense of agency a child has over their lives. It’s natural as kids gradually get older to take on more responsibility. They might learn to feed themselves, to tie their shoelaces, to make their own snacks, to go to the cinema unattended… it’s a gradual process which normally, would create a sense of accomplishment, responsibility and confidence in a kid when done right.

If your parents never let you do your own thing… you never develop that sense of self, theoretically.

My grandmother was very controlling and narcissistic herself, but to look from the outside in, she was a devoted mother. She did a lot of harm (probably completely unintentionally) to my mother and her siblings. Who knows with Letby what her home like was like?

My thinking when I saw photos of her house/bedroom is that she was extremely, extremely immature. Her house was covered in cuddley toys and cliched slogans. Her room looked like a teen bedroom, frankly. I think that coupled with her lack of adult relationship … really feels like she was emotionally stunted or something.

Her obsession with the doctor was like a teenage girls crush. Hearts beside his name and stuff. It’s interesting that he was so much older (17 years IIRC). I’m not convinced it was a sexual relationship though. They both seemed to maintain it wasn’t, but it looked like it it was definitely inappropriate. I get the impression he could’ve been an older man who was flattered by a 20 something taking an interest in him, and maybe overstepped boundaries. In the BBC article I read, Letby seemed to acknowledge him as her boyfriend, but she explicitly called him her friend. It’s a weird one for sure.

My thinking that it was an affair is mostly because according to the BBC and others, the prosecution described him as her boyfriend and it as an affair. I don’t think they’d have any cause to do that unless it was certain it was that sort of situation because if you think about it, it makes her sound worse to imply that she was just obsessed with this doctor and it was entirely unrequited than it does to say they had a relationship, he was her boyfriend, and she was seeking his attention… or at least it does to me? Both are terrible obviously but the former paints a slightly worse picture of her as a person. So if they were saying boyfriend etc then I think there must be stuff we’ve not heard proving it.
 
Thomas Cashman refused to come to the sentencing recently.
The vile coward who raped and murdered Zara Aleena also refused to come up for the sentencing. There is a petition to get the law on this changed.

 
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there is well documented and researched reasons behind it.
People are rarely just “born” wrong. People may have genetic predispositions towards pyschopathy, sociopathy or any other personality disorder. But childhood trauma is the “trigger” that makes it manifest.

childhood trauma doesn’t have to be abuse, or neglect either. The most privileged households in the world can feature trauma. (Look at Princess Diana). Being a helicopter parent can be traumatic. In can rob a child of their sense of self. It is a form of control in its most insidious form. The Krays were supposedly narcissists because their mother smothered them.

we like to tell ourselves that people like Lucy Letby are the exception. But she isn’t. The circumstances in which she put herself are exceptional, but her lack of empathy is not.

I worked in the criminal justice system and, in theory, there are more psychopaths, sociopaths etc present because they are individuals more inclined towards antisocial and criminal behaviour. There are a LOT of psychopaths out there. They have good jobs, they look outwardly very normal. Some are exceptionally charming and pleasant to be around. Scratch the surface though, and you see the reality behind the facade they build. And when you become attuned to them, you realise in society it’s not at all a rare occurance. Childhood trauma is abundant. Id say it’s likely to be an undiagnosed epidemic, because these individuals are the least likely to seek medical help or diagnosis.

it frustrates me when people shrug it off as an exceptional occurance, as if it’s something we have no agency over. It’s not rare, and it can be prevented. It can absolutely be prevented.

it can be prevented through better education, support and awareness spread through society. Maybe it should be sort of school curriculums. Maybe it should feature in prenatal classes.

it can be prevented through robust social welfare. Good provisions for women escaping abusive homes with their children. More strenuous protection and rigid laws safeguarding children. By being open minded and progressive as a society (it’s been theorised that one of the reasons Ian Brady turned out the way he did, began when his mother left him as a baby. She couldn’t care for him because she was an underpaid single mother, and because of the stigma attached. Young babies and children who are separated from their mothers at a young age, suffer hugely from that. It’s hugely traumatic for them. Had she been given a living wage and if there had been less judgement in society… the moors murders might never have happened.)

it can be prevented by making sure children get access to basic healthcare, education and food. If anyone believes society shouldn’t be providing free meals for kids… well I have some bad news for you. If you think it’s expensive providing free meals to children, then you don’t want to know how expensive it is to take these kids through NHS and mental health facilities when they are older. How expensive it is when they become reliant on welfare because they aren’t fully functioning adults. How expensive it is for them to be taken through the criminal justice system. Trust me, school meals for kids is an investment in society.
This is the kind of mantra that let people like Letby run wild.
 
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