J. K. Rowling #2 JK and the Chamber of Mysogyny

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emmer_moans said:
I also acknowledge it must be painful for trans people to want to pass for a certain gender and to be misunderstood. I'm also not denying the hate they get, the violence they might face. The solutions society needs to consider should be thought of without marginalising womens' rights either.
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This is the key difference in the approaches, isn’t it?
Bio women: “we want trans people to have rights and their own spaces but please don’t take ours”
Trans people: “shut up TERF! We’re taking your spaces!”
They demand a kind of empathy and compassion from us towards them that they will never pay the courtesy of showing back to us. They expect us to care about their rights while they tit all over ours. And the absolute worst in all this, to me anyway, are the women who are buying into this crap. The internalised misogyny is REAL.
 
Is JKR not a liberal feminist?
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Probably not. Are you assuming she’s politically liberal and a feminist so therefore is a liberal feminist, or are you suggesting there is evidence that she identifies with third wave feminism? I am not aware of the latter.

I don't have any particular interest in Emily Watson but attacking her for her support of trans rights seems a peculiar form of feminism.
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This is a strawman constantly thrown at feminists and it’s tiring. Feminists can criticise women, you know. We can even criticise each other’s feminism!

But the consultation was re reform to the GRA only.
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That’s true. Your point however was that amendments to the Equality Act and GRA reform are “clearly different” and I refute that, I maintain they are linked.

It is only because of the goverment refusing to budge on the Equality Act that these proposed changes were not included in the consultation.

edited to add: just looked up the actual government document about the GRA reform consultation because I was sure I remembered it talking about the 2010 Equality Act. I found the following:
 

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creme.egg92 said:
They demand a kind of empathy and compassion from us towards them that they will never pay the courtesy of showing back to us. They expect us to care about their rights while they tit all over ours. And the absolute worst in all this, to me anyway, are the women who are buying into this crap. The internalised misogyny is REAL.
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Plus the superiority complex because they believe they’re being so *tolerant* whilst simultaneously riding roughshod over years of petitioning and sacrifice that ensured women had recognition, protections, and the forum to voice issues concerning their sex.
 
Lanavalentine said:
Probably not. Are you assuming she’s politically liberal and a feminist so therefore is a liberal feminist, or are you suggesting there is evidence that she identifies with third wave feminism? I am not aware of the latter.



This is a strawman constantly thrown at feminists and it’s tiring. Feminists can criticise women, you know. We can even criticise each other’s feminism!



That’s true. Your point however was that amendments to the Equality Act and GRA reform are “clearly different” and I refute that, I maintain they are linked.

It is only because of the goverment refusing to budge on the Equality Act that these proposed changes were not included in the consultation.
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I’ve muted this person but I’m lolling at ‘Emily Watson’ and the clear lack of education on all the different waves as well as branches of feminism

Doc said:
Plus the superiority complex because they believe they’re being so *tolerant* whilst simultaneously riding roughshod over years of petitioning and sacrifice that ensured women had recognition, protections, and the forum to voice issues concerning their sex.
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So very very tolerant of men’s rights like a good little woman 🤢🤢
 
creme.egg92 said:
I’ve muted this person but I’m lolling at ‘Emily Watson’ and the clear lack of education on all the different waves as well as branches of feminism
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We just want a polite debate!

duck's sake, very easily amused if a typo makes her (as she has me muted) laugh out loud.

Because I think that JKR is likely to be a liberal as opposed to a radical feminist, I am ignorant of the movement? I may be mistaken but apart from her blog post "Terf Wars" and tweets re this topic, JKR hasn't really made any feminist statements/pronouncements.

SqualorVictoria said:
William Shatner has called the term "cis" demeaning. Good on him!
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What is demeaning about it? It's actually means what gc activists use biological/natal to mean.

Lanavalentine said:
This is a strawman constantly thrown at feminists and it’s tiring. Feminists can criticise women, you know. We can even criticise each other’s feminism!

edited to add: just looked up the actual government document about the GRA reform consultation because I was sure I remembered it talking about the 2010 Equality Act. I found the following:
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That wasn't what I meant and I didn't explain my point properly. It appears that Watson is being criticised, or rather people are pleased to see her being criticised, because she has disagreed with JKR's statements. There are plenty of women in the public eye making innocuous statements in the name of feminism. But Watson is seems to being criticised more because of her support for trans rights than because of the perceived vacuity of an misleadingly edited quote.
I am very much not a fan of Owen Jones for various reasons but he undoubtedly gets attacked on occasion because of his support for trans rights. Sarah Ditum objecting to him saying that people who have cleaners to clean their home shouldn't expect them to come round during the pandemic and that they have time to do the cleaning themselves. Absurdly, Ditum accused him of sexism because *she* didn't have more time because of clearing up after her husband and children. And then wrote about it in the Spectator saying she'd been "dragged into" a row she confected by quote tweeting him.
Attacking people who disagree with you on one issue and attacking them for any reason whatsoever seems a peculiar sort of feminist activism to me.

The screenshotted passage states that there are no plans to change the Equality Act in any way. I'm not sure of it's relevance as I thought you were saying that changes to the GRA *would* mean changes to the Equality Act.
 
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We don’t need the word ‘Cis’ to describe women and it sounds ridiculous to me when people say it. Just say man or woman, trans woman or trans man, I don’t see how that’s so confusing or ‘not inclusive’ for people. If anything throwing ‘cis’ in there adds to the confusion. Why are trans women demanding to be called real women whilst trying to make ‘cis’ a thing? So they get to call themselves women, but actual women don’t? It’s bullshit.

I am a woman not a ‘cis woman’ and regardless of what it means in Latin or what ever I don’t accept being referred to as ‘cis’. Trans people are the ones making the changes to themselves, not me. So why should I be expected to change how I refer to myself and other women and men? Whilst trans women go round shouting “trans women are women”. I’m a woman and always have been, I’ll be respectful and use people’s preferred pronouns so I expect the same level of respect back and for people to not call me ‘cis’. duck the word cis.
 
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Yes I utterly reject the word "cis". I am a woman and don't need to be qualified by a prefix. There shouldn't be a need to denote biological/ natal women with cis when women on it's own does that perfectly well. Plus, it's often used in a demeaning way, let's be honest.

From William Shatner's Twitter. So it's not straight mens place to tell trans women these things but it's trans womens place to tell women these things? Nope, just nope
 

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Bitofthebubbly said:
We don’t need the word ‘Cis’ to describe women and it sounds ridiculous to me when people say it. Just say man or woman, trans woman or trans man, I don’t see how that’s so confusing or ‘not inclusive’ for people. If anything throwing ‘cis’ in there adds to the confusion. Why are trans women demanding to be called real women whilst trying to make ‘cis’ a thing? So they get to call themselves women, but actual women don’t? It’s bullshit.

I am a woman not a ‘cis woman’ and regardless of what it means in Latin or what ever I don’t accept being referred to as ‘cis’. Trans people are the ones making the changes to themselves, not me. So why should I be expected to change how I refer to myself and other women and men? Whilst trans women go round shouting “trans women are women”. I’m a woman and always have been, I’ll be respectful and use people’s preferred pronouns so I expect the same level of respect back and for people to not call me ‘cis’. duck the word cis.
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Cis doesn’t mean “real” woman it just means you identify with the gender you were born with. It can also help with people who were born intersex. It’s so people stop saying trans women aren’t “real” women and that only people who were born female are real. You are cis not a real woman. If you don’t like being called cis don’t call yourself that but that’s what you are
 
If they get to demand people call them he/she/they and refer to them as what ever new name they choose. Then we get to decide if we want to be referred to as ‘cis’ or not. This is a two way street, respect goes both ways.

Kittyglitter said:
Cis doesn’t mean “real” woman it just means you identify with the gender you were born with. It can also help with people who were born intersex. It’s so people stop saying trans women aren’t “real” women and that only people who were born female are real. You are cis not a real woman. If you don’t like being called cis don’t call yourself that but that’s what you are
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I’m a woman. It’s really that simple.

And way to throw intersex people under the bus. They have nothing to do with this debate.
 
Bitofthebubbly said:
If they get to demand people call them he/she/they and refer to them as what ever new name they choose. Then we get to decide if we want to be referred to as ‘cis’ or not. This is a two way street, respect goes both ways.


I’m a woman. It’s really that simple.

And way to throw intersex people under the bus. They have nothing to do with this debate.
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I’ve not thrown them under the bus I have no idea what you mean by that? We are discussing gender and sex and they fall into it. If you don’t want to be cis don’t say cis but yo6 are. It’s like saying trans women aren’t real women
 
Kittyglitter said:
Why can’t I bring intersex people into this?
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Intersex people don’t appreciate being used as fodder to prop up trans ideology. Here’s a couple of posts from an intersex person over on the Gender Discussions thread.


I'm intersex and I categorically refuse to be included under that umbrella. Intersex is a biological condition of being that one is born with, and has absolutely nothing to do with transgender transgenderism - some intersex people may also be trans but that's it.
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I am intersex, and it is not a gender at all. It is a sex: babies can be born male, female or - rarely - intersex. It varies a lot because intersex is an umbrella term for a wide variety of conditions.

But generally intersex people hate hate hate being used as a debating point by TRAs who think our existence is some kind of perfect gotcha to use in an argument.
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No I’m not ‘cis’ I’m a woman. Me refusing to accept the word cis is not the same as saying trans women aren’t real. If their identities are so fragile that they have to rely on strangers using different words to refer to themselves then I don’t know what to say. How someone identifies isn’t my problem, like I said I will be respectful and use the pronouns and name they wish but I expect the same level of respect back and for people to call me a woman not a cis woman.
 
Bitofthebubbly said:
Intersex people don’t appreciate being used as fodder to prop up trans ideology. Here’s a couple of posts from an intersex person over on the Gender Discussions thread.
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But would you say if someone was intersex and they had surgery to be a woman that they aren’t a real woman? Because that’s the only thing stopping trans people from being a “real” woman. Would you say a woman who has to have ivf isn’t a real mum because she had to have surgery and treatment to give birth
 
Kittyglitter said:
But would you say if someone was intersex and they had surgery to be a woman that they aren’t a real woman? Because that’s the only thing stopping trans people from being a “real” woman. Would you say a woman who has to have ivf isn’t a real mum because she had to have surgery and treatment to give birth
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As said above, intersex people in general don't appreciate being used as a prop for the trans ideology. They're not the same thing at all.

And you're not seriously comparing a woman who has had IVF because of difficulties conceiving to trans women?
 
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