J. K. Rowling #2 JK and the Chamber of Mysogyny

[Lanavalentine]

I know who Buck Angel is and have seen his Twitter timeline.
I am confused because being in possession of a penis seems to be a red line in terms using women's facilities or changing documents for trans wonen but the equivalent for a trans man is not a biggie.
Re "cervix havers" - I've not seen this term used. As in the article, the phrase "anyone with a cervix" is used instead of or in addition to referring to women.
The tweet that Piers Morgan and subsequently Rosie Duffield responded to said "individuals with a cervix". It's inclusive language.
No one is trying to erase the term woman.

Well yes, a penis is not welcome in the women’s facilities. That’s one of the reasons we have sex-segregated facilities, hospital wards, etc. That and the physical differences between men and women, and the fact that men perpetuate something like 95% of the world’s violent crime, no matter how they identify.

The opposite isn’t as much of a concern because there is no epidemic of violence of women against men, or women against women. I’d prefer transmen who retain female genitalia use women’s facilities because they are vulnerable in the men’s. I’m happy to share a loo etc with someone like Buck Angel. He believes in biological sex.

Your point about “cervix havers” is just splitting hairs. People do say that, but even so, saying anything beyond women/girl/female IS erasure of language, and it matters. If you cannot accurately define and name what a woman is, then how can women expect sex-segregation that is intended to protect them?

You also have to consider some of the most vulnerable women in this country do not know they have a cervix. They don’t know what that word means. Although this is a small percentage of women, it’s an important one - refugees and women with little English skills, women with learning difficulties. If we use “inclusive language” then we actually risk alienating them.

Why can’t campaigns say “women and anyone with a cervix” so we don’t allow the erasure of the word woman and we don’t have anyone left out? Why is it that women have to roll over to make room for transpeople in a way that nobody is demanding of men?

 

[Milliemoo99]

''I am confused because being in possession of a penis seems to be a red line in terms using women's facilities or changing documents for trans wonen but the equivalent for a trans man is not a biggie. ''

It is so hard to generalise. But I am aware that a lot of men tend to be bigger and stronger than me, and I have seen men getting angry with each other and fighting outside pubs and clubs.

so to me the possession of a penis is a question mark, is this person going to get aggressive or difficult? (Because of the testosterone and male hormones in their body)

I am also aware as a woman, I tend to avoid dark places late at night, and take steps to keep myself safe, So I want to keep safe women only spaces. Women can be horrible and bitchy to each other, but ....most are the same size as me, so not actually a physical threat.

My biggest issue with this debate, is I am confused.......I dont actually think gender or sex should matter, I think we should be happy in our own minds and bodies. So why the need to change? What difference do clothes and make up make to the person we are inside?

 

[creme.egg92]

I am trolling. I have been polite. I have been told to duck off. Accused of being a troll. Told that "unlike you I listen to the other side...".
The thread is very much not civil.

It's a two way street. If you enter a thread saying it's a 'bleeping sewer' and you think that's polite, you must've been raised in a barn. You can't expect people to be civil to you like that. Glitterkitty had different views and we all had a civil conversation with her because she was polite in her posts. All you're doing is nitpicking other people's posts or avoiding answering questions people ask you. You also show total disregard for women's safety and I have no business being nice to someone like that, you're clearly as bigoted towards women as you think we are towards trans people. So I won't be replying anymore to you because I don't think you add anything worth reading or that I can learn anything from but it's rich of you to cry that people aren't being civil to you given how you entered the thread.

The opposite isn’t as much of a concern because there is no epidemic of violence of women against men, or women against women. I’d prefer transmen who retain female genitalia use women’s facilities because they are vulnerable in the men’s. I’m happy to share a loo etc with someone like Buck Angel. He believes in biological sex.

Agree, Buck is the one with the vagina entering a space full of penises, if he feels for him personally that's safe to do then that's a matter for him. The reverse is not true for us, we are the ones at danger when bio men insist on using our toilets etc. The two are just not comparable. Equally as a woman I don't think it's my place to dictate to men who they accept into their spaces or not, but it is my business who uses the women's spaces so I only really comment on that personally

 

[Mselvista]

Why can’t campaigns say “women and anyone with a cervix” so we don’t allow the erasure of the word woman and we don’t have anyone left out? Why is it that women have to roll over to make room for transpeople in a way that nobody is demanding of men?

It can.
I do think the idea that the term "woman" is being replaced is verging on paranoia conspiracy theory. It doesn't bear any relation to the reality I see.
There were tweets after The Body Shop tweeted JKR saying that their site had removed all instances of the word "woman". And people lapped it up and RTed even though it wasn't true. Why do gc activists seize on these things and *want* them to be true? What is the desire see womanhood as under attack? It reminds me of those convinced that "white identity" is under attack. That "Judeo-Christian values" are threatened. (I'm not saying gc activists are racist, I want to make that absolutely clear.) Why are people drawn these theories that cast them as a persecuted group under attack? What enjoyment do they get from reading all the different ways that this is happening or will happen?

 

[Lanavalentine]

''I am confused because being in possession of a penis seems to be a red line in terms using women's facilities or changing documents for trans wonen but the equivalent for a trans man is not a biggie. ''

It is so hard to generalise. But I am aware that a lot of men tend to be bigger and stronger than me, and I have seen men getting angry with each other and fighting outside pubs and clubs.

so to me the possession of a penis is a question mark, is this person going to get aggressive or difficult? (Because of the testosterone and male hormones in their body)

I am also aware as a woman, I tend to avoid dark places late at night, and take steps to keep myself safe, So I want to keep safe women only spaces. Women can be horrible and bitchy to each other, but ....most are the same size as me, so not actually a physical threat.

My biggest issue with this debate, is I am confused.......I dont actually think gender or sex should matter, I think we should be happy in our own minds and bodies. So why the need to change? What difference do clothes and make up make to the person we are inside?

Biological sex should matter because of the reasons you’ve said. Men and women have different skeletons, strength, lung capacity etc and this makes women vulnerable. It also makes sports impossible for women to win if they aren’t sex-segregated.

I agree though, gender is a social construct and means nothing. It’s a tool of the patriarchy and harms both men and women - arbitrary ideas of what a woman or man must be.

It’s very worrying to me to hear people say “I think I am a woman because I love makeup and dresses”, especially when kids say this. We’ve gone backwards.

 

[Milliemoo99]

Why can’t campaigns say “women and anyone with a cervix” so we don’t allow the erasure of the word woman and we don’t have anyone left out? Why is it that women have to roll over to make room for transpeople in a way that nobody is demanding of men?

I would be happy with a campaign that said women and anyone with a cervix.

 

[Lanavalentine]

It can.
I do think the idea that the term "woman" is being replaced is verging on paranoia conspiracy theory. It doesn't bear any relation to the reality I see.
There were tweets after The Body Shop tweeted JKR saying that their site had removed all instances of the word "woman". And people lapped it up and RTed even though it wasn't true. Why do gc activists seize on these things and *want* them to be true? What is the desire see womanhood as under attack? It reminds me of those convinced that "white identity" is under attack. That "Judeo-Christian values" are threatened. (I'm not saying gc activists are racist, I want to make that absolutely clear.) Why are people drawn these theories that cast them as a persecuted group under attack? What enjoyment do they get from reading all the different ways that this is happening or will happen?

Well we’ll just have to agree to disagree entirely on that! I don’t know anything about the Body Shop tweets so can’t comment on that.

It’s not a theory to me, it’s a reality. Firstly, women are a marginalized group - what other marginalized group is being told to change the way they describe themselves to make room for others? None!

Secondly, if women cannot call themselves women and mean it to be people who are biologically female, then women-only issues are diluted. Feminism is diluted. Woman becomes meaningless. Lesbianism becomes meaningless.

It’s also a larger issue than using terms like “people with a cervix”, because much of the push to change the meaning of the word woman comes from male to female transpeople, which is even more problematic.

 

[Mselvista]

I can not answer each question that has been asked. Were I to go back and try (and some posts ask two or three) by the time I've answered one there are several more.
My first comment on the thread was not polite but I have not been impolite to individuals.

 

[Milliemoo99]

It can.
I do think the idea that the term "woman" is being replaced is verging on paranoia conspiracy theory. It doesn't bear any relation to the reality I see.
There were tweets after The Body Shop tweeted JKR saying that their site had removed all instances of the word "woman". And people lapped it up and RTed even though it wasn't true. Why do gc activists seize on these things and *want* them to be true? What is the desire see womanhood as under attack? It reminds me of those convinced that "white identity" is under attack. That "Judeo-Christian values" are threatened. (I'm not saying gc activists are racist, I want to make that absolutely clear.) Why are people drawn these theories that cast them as a persecuted group under attack? What enjoyment do they get from reading all the different ways that this is happening or will happen?

Why do you think people are enjoying this? I get the impression people are scared and worried!

If you are saying that there is an open debate about this, I am pleased to hear it. But this isnt the impression I am getting, either from the press or from the more general culture around us.

A lot of people dont feel able to ask questions, its the same kind of issue as racism or sexism. ie...its not actually enough to just say its wrong, that just pushes issues underground, and leaves space for white suprematist groups to fester. Its the kind of issue that needs to be openly discussed, so that it can be properly addressed. Maybe if there was a more open debate ...there would be more understanding....and less frustration, on both sides.

Where do words like cis come from? Why create a code of words I have to look up to understand? What does trucute mean?
How can a man physically give birth to a child?
Why do trans women place such importance on hair, make up and clothes? As these are things I've always tried to tell my daughters, are unimportant and nothing to do with being a woman.
Where do physical female issues of menstruation and menopause fit in to the debate? The pain, the mood swings, the mess!

 

[Mselvista]

I agree though, gender is a social construct and means nothing. It’s a tool of the patriarchy and harms both men and women - arbitrary ideas of what a woman or man must be.

It’s very worrying to me to hear people say “I think I am a woman because I love makeup and dresses”, especially when kids say this. We’ve gone backwards.

But equally, many gc activists - and it has been said today - state that trans women who do not make an effort to alter their appearance should not be allowed to enter women's spaces.
There is a British cis woman who has been interviewed for newspaper articles and appeared on daytime tv who wears a full beard. Obviously most cis women don't have as much facial hair and those that do choose to remove it. Once one gets prescriptive about what women "should" look like where does that leave a truly gender non conforming woman like that? Is she to be allowed into the women's loos?

 

[Doc]

I’m not sure where “Judeo-Christian” values fit into this?

Is it not more a case of:-

- In order to be granted some semblance of equality and protection because of their biological composition, women needed a set of legal protections from men which have been fought for over the years.
- There are now pressure groups wanting to allow self id of gender. This is regardless of psychological assessment, reassignment surgery, even “passing” as a woman — ie legally, medically and psychologically unimpeded access to female safe spaces which have been historically deemed necessary because of female biological composition!

It’s not transphobia. I don’t give a tit how someone chooses to live their life. But I do care about what happens in my life, and my daughter’s life, and preserving those protections and rights afforded to us by law because of our biology.

 

[SoulRebel]

Oh golly, this has got really nasty. Some women are born without a cervix or a womb, some men are born without a functioning penis, but women are generally 46 XX and men 46 XY. Most men are stronger and bigger than most women. More men are convicted of violent crime than women. Under current UK legislation only men can commit rape. Until 1992 it was legal in the UK for a married man to rape his wife.

A silly but relevant story: when I briefly worked for Debenham's in a small seaside town in the UK we had a couple of cross-dressing men who were frequent flyers. They were fine and lovely and we had no problem with them, but we received a directive from HO saying that anyone who identified as a woman whatever their appearance was to be allowed to use the female changing rooms. When we asked what to do with some of our regular old ladies who came into the changing rooms to have a chat/enjoy some female company/be fussed over, we told to take them to another changing room (there wasn't one on the floor).

I should add that I don't think the lovely men I knew were transgender, they just like wearing women's clothes.

 

[creme.egg92]

A silly but relevant story: when I briefly worked for Debenham's in a small seaside town in the UK we had a couple of cross-dressing men who were frequent flyers. They were fine and lovely and we had no problem with them, but we received a directive from HO saying that anyone who identified as a woman whatever their appearance was to be allowed to use the female changing rooms. When we asked what to do with some of our regular old ladies who came into the changing rooms to have a chat/enjoy some female company/be fussed over, we told to take them to another changing room (there wasn't one on the floor).

I've had the misfortune of having some truly toe-curlingly horrid photos retweeted onto my Twitter timeline of what some trans women are doing in M&S changing rooms. Masturbating onto women's pants and then putting them back on the shelves, demanding to be bra fitted etc (not on hormones or anything - no breasts in sight). No consideration given that there will be very young girls in those changing rooms getting fitted while there's people masturbating next door to them, or of the safety of the bra fitting girls who in my experience are often late teenagers/young women themselves. M&S in particular are really pigheaded about it.

 

[SoulRebel]

But equally, many gc activists - and it has been said today - state that trans women who do not make an effort to alter their appearance should not be allowed to enter women's spaces.
There is a British cis woman who has been interviewed for newspaper articles and appeared on daytime tv who wears a full beard. bviously most cis

But equally, many gc activists - and it has been said today - state that trans women who do not make an effort to alter their appearance should not be allowed to enter women's spaces.
There is a British cis woman who has been interviewed for newspaper articles and appeared on daytime tv who wears a full beard. Obviously most cis women don't have as much facial hair and those that do choose to remove it. Once one gets prescriptive about what women "should" look like where does that leave a truly gender non conforming woman like that? Is she to be allowed into the women's loos?

. Once one gets prescriptive about what women "should" look like whOere does that leave a truly gender non conforming woman like that? Is she to be allowed into the women's loos?

Obviously most cis women don't have as much facial hair and those that do choose to remove it.

Ha! You really hate women, don't you? Let some women with PCOS explain that one away.

 

[Lanavalentine]

But equally, many gc activists - and it has been said today - state that trans women who do not make an effort to alter their appearance should not be allowed to enter women's spaces.

I don’t understand how your point follows on from mine? GC women believe in SEX segregation, not gender identity segregation. It’s ultimately about biology, not appearance.

I can’t speak for other posters, but presumably they’re trying to make the point that a visibly male person entering a woman’s safe space is far more likely to cause traumatic reactions in vulnerable women (rape victims, domestic abuse survivors and similar) than a transwoman who looks like Blaire White.

There is a British cis woman who has been interviewed for newspaper articles and appeared on daytime tv who wears a full beard. Obviously most cis women don't have as much facial hair and those that do choose to remove it. Once one gets prescriptive about what women "should" look like where does that leave a truly gender non conforming woman like that? Is she to be allowed into the women's loos?

Again, think you’ve missed the gender critical point of view. We are not being perscriptive about what women look like - many GC women are gender non-conforming, but they still believe in biological sex.

Women are generally aware that some women get excess facial hair, particularly from PCOS etc. If you’re referring to the woman I’m thinking of, then she looks like a biological woman except for the beard, but more to the point, she IS a biological woman!

It’s about biological sex. That is the bottom line. I can understand that some women feel more comfortable with transwomen who “pass” and have had surgery. I probably feel more comfortable with them too. However, the line must be drawn somewhere and keeping the line at biological sex rather than adding in all these shades of grey is the best possible way to protect vulnerable women and maintain women’s safe spaces, women’s sports etc.

 

[SoulRebel]

I've had the misfortune of having some truly toe-curlingly horrid photos retweeted onto my Twitter timeline of what some trans women are doing in M&S changing rooms. Masturbating onto women's pants and then putting them back on the shelves, demanding to be bra fitted etc (not on hormones or anything - no breasts in sight). No consideration given that there will be very young girls in those changing rooms getting fitted while there's people masturbating next door to them, or of the safety of the bra fitting girls who in my experience are often late teenagers/young women themselves. M&S in particular are really pigheaded about it.

I don't look at Twitter any more but can confirm that some of our lovely women in lingerie were instructed to measure anyone who demanded it (despite not having breasts) for a bra. Our consultants were mainly in their 50s/60s and desperate to keep their jobs.
I think that this is getting a bit hysterical now, at no point did anyone hear anyone masturbating in a cubicle!

 

[Mselvista]

Why do you think people are enjoying this? I get the impression people are scared and worried!

Because it has become a hobby for some. Some people are scared and worried - I think they have been misinformed and I feel quite angry that a movement claiming to be feminist is about terrifying women by making trans women contemporary folk devils. I think people that possibly don't know much about the subject are effectively radicalised online and go down rabbit holes and end up in echo chambers and emerge genuinely believeing their is an attempt to remove the word "woman" from the language. And I think that like conspiracy theorists they seek out more material which confirms their viewpoint and that because of Karen White it is completely fine to demonise other trans women and deny them basic dignities such as being able to use the loo when out and about.
I was fairly ignorant re trans issues (and probably still am) and it was the behaviour of gc activists of online and especially on Twitter that first interested me. In a similar way to some Corbyn supporters and some supporters of Scottish Independence, they were tenacious and hounding prople who disagreed. And then turning round and denying their behaviour, claiming to have been bullied and accusing others of the very things they were doing. I found it gobsmacking.
I don't understand what gc activists want a debate about. I don't believe that trans rights or self id are in conflict with my rights. It is often said that the concern is reform of the GRA/self id meaning non trans men could pretend to be trans to gain access to women's spaces and then examples are given of trans women commiting crimes. What relevance does that have to cis men impersonating trans women to commit crimes? I thought gc activists didn't have an issue with trans women?

If you want to be a pedant about it, I actually said 'I have never seen anyone...' I didn't see this post and in any case it was posted after mine.

However, if you want to feel superior that I missed one post in what I said that was written after I wrote my post (doesn't even make sense mate) go right ahead. I note you haven't answered any questions anyone has asked you. You clearly show no

Ha! You really hate women, don't you? Let some women with PCOS explain that one away.

What are talking about? What makes you think I hate women?

 

[creme.egg92]

I don't look at Twitter any more but can confirm that some of our lovely women in lingerie were instructed to measure anyone who demanded it (despite not having breasts) for a bra. Our consultants were mainly in their 50s/60s and desperate to keep their jobs.
I think that this is getting a bit hysterical now, at no point did anyone hear anyone masturbating in a cubicle!

I wouldn't look if I were you, these are being posted by trans people themselves who are proud of what they're doing.

If you’re referring to the woman I’m thinking of, then she looks like a biological woman except for the beard, but more to the point, she IS a biological woman!

It’s about biological sex.

All this seems to me like even more of an argument to keep private spaces segregated on sex and not gender. If we know the female changing rooms are only to be used by people of a female sex, we don't need to concern ourselves at all with what people look like. Obviously, women with PCOS, facial hair, whatever are welcome in these spaces because they are biological women. The answer is not to start watering down these requirements but to create a third space or self contained cubicles for people who for whatever reason cannot/choose not to use the space designed for their sex.

 

[Lanavalentine]

Because it has become a hobby for some. Some people are scared and worried - I think they have been misinformed and I feel quite angry that a movement claiming to be feminist is about terrifying women by making trans women contemporary folk devils. I think people that possibly don't know much about the subject are effectively radicalised online and go down rabbit holes and end up in echo chambers and emerge genuinely believeing their is an attempt to remove the word "woman" from the language. And I think that like conspiracy theorists they seek out more material which confirms their viewpoint and that because of Karen White it is completely fine to demonise other trans women and deny them basic dignities such as being able to use the loo when out and about.
I was fairly ignorant re trans issues (and probably still am) and it was the behaviour of gc activists of online and especially on Twitter that first interested me. In a similar way to some Corbyn supporters and some supporters of Scottish Independence, they were tenacious and hounding prople who disagreed. And then turning round and denying their behaviour, claiming to have been bullied and accusing others of the very things they were doing. I found it gobsmacking.
I don't understand what gc activists want a debate about. I don't believe that trans rights or self id are in conflict with my rights. It is often said that the concern is reform of the GRA/self id meaning non trans men could pretend to be trans to gain access to women's spaces and then examples are given of trans women commiting crimes. What relevance does that have to cis men impersonating trans women to commit crimes? I thought gc activists didn't have an issue with trans women?

With all due respect, I don’t think you have understood any of the issues at hand.

You’ve got transmen and transwomen the wrong way around, for a start. You’ve also diluted and twisted our arguments - nobody is saying a transwoman cannot use the toilet, but we are saying they should use the men’s, or advocate for third spaces (I personally support this as the solution and I know many GC feminists do too).

The dismissal of GC feminists as not being educated is very unfair. The majority of GC feminists start off as supporters of TRAs, and you’d know this if you had investigated to the level you’ve claimed.

By reforming the GRA, you make it easier for predatory men to access women’s safe spaces. It means women cannot challenge a man who enters, because he can just say “but I’m a woman” if he is or not. Nobody can stop him until he actually commits a crime, by which point it’s too late.

 

[jewelkitty]

I'm curious, if trans women want to use women's toilets and trans men use the men's, where does that leave non-binary people? I get that everyone would feel differently but if we did start having 3rd trans spaces then they could be used for NB people too.