J. K. Rowling #2 JK and the Chamber of Mysogyny

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I don’t understand why mine were either.

I don’t want to report or ignore people who disagree with me, I want to have a respectful discussion of the issues at hand, in reference to JK Rowling’s essay.

I don’t see what’s wrong with that as long as nobody is nasty or baits each other?
Notice they haven't said a word since they (I assume it was them) got people's comments deleted lol. I also got 2 removed.
 
This is all true, but equally important for young people is that we don't push them towards being trans. Sometimes little boys like pink and Barbie, and they are now being told they must be trans because of it. The result of that means kids get confused about gender and upset that they aren't conforming, when the reality is it does not matter at all if a boy likes pink. When these kids are then pushed towards Mermaids etc they're being stuck on puberty blockers and all other kinds of experimental harmful stuff. The NHS has only recently changed their guidance to say 'puberty blockers are not reversible' which means there are lots of children who have been treated as an unwilling experiment subject, we have no idea what will happen to their bodies later down the line now. So there is definitely a balance between helping people who experience genuine gender dysphoria and treating them appropriately and also making sure we aren't worrying little children unnecessarily about things that are normal and fine such that they end up feeling like they must change gender. You might be interested to search for people who have detransitioned who have interesting stories similar to this, also sometimes they are children who would end up realising they are gay or lesbian later in their lives but their parents have pushed them towards transitioning. I believe the Tavistock recently reported that they have a lot of parents who bring children in saying 'I dont want him to be gay' etc, some of this is just straight up homophobia. It is all very, very complicated.

This is what worries me about the pressure on kids nowadays, using puberty blockers that would then interfere with their bodies health, with irreversible effects, with an echo chamber of TRAs on Twitter making it hard for the individual teenagers to come to their own conclusions and evaluate their own feelings on the process. I understand for those with genuine gender dysphoria how that must be very hard to deal with, but transitioning medically when so young does ring alarm bells for me.

Regarding adults, if a person no longer had the male penis then I would be personally be okay with them in a female changing room with me. If they self Id as female but are biologically male/have male sex organ then no, I am not comfortable with them using female only vulnerable spaces. A lot of us here are not hateful or transphobic, but rather wish for our safe spaces to be safeguarded. I don't hate anyone, but just in the same way as I would feel terrified running alone at night as a petite female I would also feel intimidated in a confined changing room confronted with a naked person with a penis. It's not transphobic in my view, it harks back to the innate biological fear many women have of being typically less physically powerful, to be vulnerable. That doesn't erase the pain trans people must feel trying to be the other gender, of course. But we must all be allowed to discuss freely, rather than being shot down as categorically transphobic just because we want to speak up for our own non-trans concerns.

I am not a rat and I don't live in a sewer.

On sporting, women face so many hardships getting to the competitive levels of professional sport, in contrast to their male counterparts. I can't imagine feeling very good about getting to those heights then being outpaced by a person with broader build, larger muscles and larger stride because they used to be male. It's not a fair match and means the typical female athlete can never compare physically, no matter how talented they are, how hard they strive. Suddenly then women are disadvantaged in a category that was supposed to level the playing field. It's similar to forcing a 5ft teenaged girl to box in a ring with a heavyweight man, it's not on! By all means create a 3rd mixed sex category that any athletes (trans, female, male, non binary) can elect to join and then sub categorize by build/weight whereever appropriate to the particular sport. That would be better.
 
It's always the GC posts that are deleted. One of mine was yesterday. This one probably will be now.
My posts weren't "gender critical". And there's plenty of gc activists' posts still up.
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Do you have an issue if we moved to a system whereby any random man can claim he is now female without changing his appearance at all, taking hormones, or seeking surgery?
I have never seen anyone on here say that we don't think medically transitioned people should not be allowed in the other gender's spaces.
It's been said today on this thread.

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I don't think the murder or rape of children is acceptable, no.
Do I think it is acceptable that they have had gender reassignment surgery? I suppose ultimately I do. Gender reassignment surgery is a form of healthcare and denial of healthcare is not part of a prisoner's sentence or punishment. If one believes that those experiencing gender dysphoria should undergo gender reassignment surgery before being able to access women's toilets, changing rooms etc and that a grc should only be issued to those individuals that undergo such surgery, surely that surgery must be accessible to those individuals. If one agrees that that should be the case for the general population, then I'm not sure on what grounds such surgery could be denied a member of the prison population, regardless of their crime(s).


The grounds under which surgery of any kind could be denied to anyone is if it was deemed that surgery could harm the patient. That harm could be physical, psychological, or both. Gender Reassignment is not a panacea for Gender Dysphoria, as the underlying psychopathology in many cases, will not be "fixed" by Gender Reassignment Surgery, and in some cases, surgery could put the patient at even greater risk of suicide.
 
Buck Angel is another trans man who I like to listen to; he's very rational and reasonable about everything.
I would have thought this was objectionable to "gender critics"

And I can't imagine a trans woman writing an article similar to this would be praised by gc activists.


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The grounds under which surgery of any kind could be denied to anyone is if it was deemed that surgery could harm the patient. That harm could be physical, psychological, or both. Gender Reassignment is not a panacea for Gender Dysphoria, as the underlying psychopathology in many cases, will not be "fixed" by Gender Reassignment Surgery, and in some cases, surgery could put the patient at even greater risk of suicide.
That's a different argument. I was talking about whether it's acceptable for a convicted prisoner to undergo such surgery. I don't think - *if* one considers grs is a remedy for dysphoria- that it can be denied to someone *because* they're a prisoner. You will note I say in my post "if one accepts...".
 
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My posts weren't "gender critical". And there's plenty of gc activists' posts still up.View attachment 207507 q

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It's been said today on this thread.

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I mean I stand by what I said. Chopping your cock off or fashioning it into some sort of hole and getting breast implants doesn’t make someone a woman. A violent man with no penis is still a violent man and still retains the physical strength of a man and has no place being locked up with female inmates.
 
I would have thought this was objectionable to "gender critics"

And I can't imagine a trans woman writing an article similar to this would be praised by gc activists.


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Why would you think either of those are particularly objectionable to a gender critical feminist?

We include transmen in our feminism. We want them to get smears etc, we just don’t want the language to be changed to be “cervix havers” etc. Personally I’d keep calling us women and then have separate campaigns targeted at transmen. I don’t support the Eve appeal campaign as Buck does in the article, but I absolutely do support the idea of medical professionals doing more to ensure transmen get gynae care. Just not at the expense of women.

The second article is really sad. I’m so glad Buck didn’t get sex reassignment surgery as I understand it is mostly greedy surgeons doing botched surgeries on vulnerable people. Totally support transmen loving their vaginas and learning to enjoy sex, just don’t want them to force me to call myself a vagina haver or force people to say vaginas are male or penises are female.

When it’s on a personal level, like for Buck, then it’s fine. It’s when it affects other people and we’re forced to change our language and lose our safe spaces that it’s a problem.

Think you might have misunderstood the GC position a bit. It’s not coming from a place of hate and exclusion. Also recommend checking out Buck Angel’s Twitter.
 
My posts weren't "gender critical". And there's plenty of gc activists' posts still up

It's been said today on this thread.

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I interpreted that more as the poster didn't know if the vile person you were talking about was pre or post op at the time they were put into the female prison as opposed to saying they didn't think post op people should be allowed in female spaces. I am not that poster so I can't confirm.
I'm not sure why you've highlighted the 'women's prison' bit though. I'm also not sure why, if you claim you're discussing in good faith, you keep putting gender critical in inverted commas. You've made your stance on women's safety (aka you couldn't give less of a tit if you tried) perfectly clear and people have still been polite to you.
 
Explain how they aren’t women. They have the brain and the body of a woman after surgery so how aren’t they a woman

Strictly speaking, scientifically, How does a trans woman have the brain of a woman?
When I studied A level Biology, we were told that women had smaller brains than men! Mainly because of the physical size of our skulls and the brains inside that skull are smaller!

Its obviously not to do with brain power or ability to think, but...
 
This is what worries me about the pressure on kids nowadays, using puberty blockers that would then interfere with their bodies health, with irreversible effects, with an echo chamber of TRAs on Twitter making it hard for the individual teenagers to come to their own conclusions and evaluate their own feelings on the process. I understand for those with genuine gender dysphoria how that must be very hard to deal with, but transitioning medically when so young does ring alarm bells for me.
There is meant to be a test case coming up about this brought by a nurse who I believe worked at the Tavistock for a bit and I am really looking forward to hearing it (and hopeful for the outcome). Medical law in England and Wales basically seeks to prevent children from making long term, irreversible changes to their bodies that they might later regret as adults. The goal for these children is generally to get them to age of 18 and then let them do as they please as fully autonomous adults. I think it will be very interesting indeed for a court to establish whether children can be consenting to experimental treatments that we don't know the full effects of under the guise of established medical treatment. Equally I am looking forward to seeing what I am sure will shortly be a raft of disclosure negligence cases as the NHS has now updated its information to say that it is 'no longer' clear that the effects of puberty blockers are reversible. This, in effect, means they WERE NEVER known to be reversible because if we don't know this now then we never did. Which means there are plenty of people out there who have been negligently told these medicines are reversible and have made the choice to take them on the back of this information when it was all untrue. So, I imagine it will take a while but the tide is turning and given how protective the courts generally are over children making irreversible decisions they might regret later I am hopeful that a few sensible judges will shut a lot of this down at some point.
 
People saying trans women are men. People here saying trans people are trans to be predators. How many of you have actually been affected by trans people in real life

I had a trans person in my gym.....no issues at all........But we had those horrible communal changing rooms, where we were supposed to change after swimming or showering. I dont like changing in public, Im not body confident enough, so chose to partially dress in the showers.
But I had a bit of a shock one day hearing a male voice over the top of the shower cubicle, thinking....why is there a man in the ladies showers.....only to realise it was our trans woman having a chat ....

I had no issue with her using the gym, but...it felt odd to have her in a female changing room, where a lot of women were changing...with no option to be asked if this was ok!
 
I would have thought this was objectionable to "gender critics"

And I can't imagine a trans woman writing an article similar to this would be praised by gc activists.


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That's a different argument. I was talking about whether it's acceptable for a convicted prisoner to undergo such surgery. I don't think - *if* one considers grs is a remedy for dysphoria- that it can be denied to someone *because* they're a prisoner. You will note I say in my post "if one accepts...".
First of all, you still haven't answered the sports question or my question about whether you think someone who rapes babies and self-cannibalises should be taken at their word.

Second of all, seeing as you're hell-bent on trying to find little inconsistencies in what people say, the difference between me and you is that I want to listen to "the other side" and having 100% aligned beliefs to the extent that it's a dogma is not a prerequisite for my support. Unlike you. :)
 
Why would you think either of those are particularly objectionable to a gender critical feminist?

We include transmen in our feminism. We want them to get smears etc, we just don’t want the language to be changed to be “cervix havers” etc. Personally I’d keep calling us women and then have separate campaigns targeted at transmen. I don’t support the Eve appeal campaign as Buck does in the article, but I absolutely do support the idea of medical professionals doing more to ensure transmen get gynae care. Just not at the expense of women.

The second article is really sad. I’m so glad Buck didn’t get sex reassignment surgery as I understand it is mostly greedy surgeons doing botched surgeries on vulnerable people. Totally support transmen loving their vaginas and learning to enjoy sex, just don’t want them to force me to call myself a vagina haver or force people to say vaginas are male or penises are female.

When it’s on a personal level, like for Buck, then it’s fine. It’s when it affects other people and we’re forced to change our language and lose our safe spaces that it’s a problem.

Think you might have misunderstood the GC position a bit. It’s not coming from a place of hate and exclusion. Also recommend checking out Buck Angel’s Twitter.
I know who Buck Angel is and have seen his Twitter timeline.
I am confused because being in possession of a penis seems to be a red line in terms using women's facilities or changing documents for trans wonen but the equivalent for a trans man is not a biggie.
Re "cervix havers" - I've not seen this term used. As in the article, the phrase "anyone with a cervix" is used instead of or in addition to referring to women.
The tweet that Piers Morgan and subsequently Rosie Duffield responded to said "individuals with a cervix". It's inclusive language.
No one is trying to erase the term woman.
 
Strictly speaking, scientifically, How does a trans woman have the brain of a woman?
When I studied A level Biology, we were told that women had smaller brains than men! Mainly because of the physical size of our skulls and the brains inside that skull are smaller!

Its obviously not to do with brain power or ability to think, but...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....py-together/201904/male-and-female-brains?amp there are some many more articles online including more scholar ones but this one gets straight to the point
 
I mean I stand by what I said. Chopping your cock off or fashioning it into some sort of hole and getting breast implants doesn’t make someone a woman. A violent man with no penis is still a violent man and still retains the physical strength of a man and has no place being locked up with female inmates.
So you confirm that this statement was incorrect and mine was correct. You were saying that a "medically transitioned" person should not be "allowed in the other gender's spaces".
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I know who Buck Angel is and have seen his Twitter timeline.
I am confused because being in possession of a penis seems to be a red line in terms using women's facilities or changing documents for trans wonen but the equivalent for a trans man is not a biggie.
Re "cervix havers" - I've not seen this term used. As in the article, the phrase "anyone with a cervix" is used instead of or in addition to referring to women.
The tweet that Piers Morgan and subsequently Rosie Duffield responded to said "individuals with a cervix". It's inclusive language.
No one is trying to erase the term woman.

So if language is inclusive, what is the issue in saying that women and all other female mammals have cervixes?

I thought the whole thing about the JK Rowling storm was that she was suggesting that the term woman was being erased or devalued?
 
So you confirm that this statement was incorrect and mine was correct. You were saying that a "medically transitioned" person should not be "allowed in the other gender's spaces".View attachment 207636 q
If you want to be a pedant about it, I actually said 'I have never seen anyone...' I didn't see this post and in any case it was posted after mine.

However, if you want to feel superior that I missed one post in what I said that was written after I wrote my post (doesn't even make sense mate) go right ahead. I note you haven't answered any questions anyone has asked you. You clearly show no regard for women whatsoever which is just as bigoted as you think we are. If you have nothing better to do with your time than troll a usually civil and thoughtful thread I feel genuinely sorry for you and your life.
 
First of all, you still haven't answered the sports question or my question about whether you think someone who rapes babies and self-cannibalises should be taken at their word.
I've gone back and tried but I can't find your soorts question. Not sure if it's gone.
You're second question, I started but
So if language is inclusive, what is the issue in saying that women and all other female mammals have cervixes?
It sounds stupid. Healthcare campaigns are generally not aimed at non human animals and people are not generally referred to as "mammals".

If you want to be a pedant about it, I actually said 'I have never seen anyone...' I didn't see this post and in any case it was posted after mine.

However, if you want to feel superior that I missed one post in what I said that was written after I wrote my post (doesn't even make sense mate) go right ahead. I note you haven't answered any questions anyone has asked you. You clearly show no regard for women whatsoever which is just as bigoted as you think we are. If you have nothing better to do with your time than troll a usually civil and thoughtful thread I feel genuinely sorry for you and your life.
I am not trolling. I have been polite. I have been told to duck off. Accused of being a troll. Told that "unlike you I listen to the other side...". I have been accused of not arguing in good faith because I misinterpreted an ambiguously phrased question.
The thread is very much not civil.
 
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