UK Literary Luvvies
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Love_hate_small_town
Chatty Member
Someone mentioned it above but really agree that just because they came up in newspapers does not put them on the same level as a proper journo. Fashion journalism is great and I get the impression that Pandora was good at it but it was all surface level stuff. She has not got to where she is through merit. I have no doubt she works hard and she is good at podcasting but she’s no creative force or significant cultural commentator.
A lot of her personality is based on reading and while I’m sure she does read a lot, I’d say there’s a fair amount of summery reading going on. She used to read The Week (weekly news digest) and all of her current affairs recs would come from it on the high low but she’d make out that she’d read it in the original publication making it sound like she read every newspaper. I used to read the week and it was really obvious.
A lot of her personality is based on reading and while I’m sure she does read a lot, I’d say there’s a fair amount of summery reading going on. She used to read The Week (weekly news digest) and all of her current affairs recs would come from it on the high low but she’d make out that she’d read it in the original publication making it sound like she read every newspaper. I used to read the week and it was really obvious.
I’m not getting into it further but this post precisely proves my point. Calling a Fashion Features editor not a ‘proper journo’ seems really dismissive to me. Fashion and features writing is journalism too! Just because it’s not investigative reporting or political commentary doesn’t mean it’s not got value and I would reflect on why you think it doesn’t count as ‘proper’ journalism - seems a little like internalised misogyny to me. If you want to say she didn’t get there by merit and it’s all shallow, that’s simply your opinion and not fact. I personally thought her journalism on the reality tv podcast was really good. Similarly Elizabeth Day won Young Journalist of the Year previously and Feature Writer of the Year.
I’m not getting into debates about whether they’re talentless or not (though clearly the general public and the British Press Awards don’t think so) as they’re value judgments as I say. But I don’t agree with the way fashion and features journalism is being dismissed here. AA Milne was a features writer too - wonder why he never got dismissed as on a different level to ‘proper journos’!
jenmarks
VIP Member
Oooooofff, get out of the wrong side of bed Pandora?!!
There’s certainly merit in fashion journalism. A good fashion journalist is Sarah Mower. Read some of her work and catwalk reports and compare the level of analysis and detail to Pandora.
I think part of the issue is that these people only do newspapers, magazines and podcasts in snippets instead of in depth articles too so yes, it is shallow. The day Pandora produces an op-ed of four A4 pages full of incisive analysis in a literary review will prove me wrong
And also, part of journalism is championing and researching new ideas- I never saw Pandora tell me about an up and coming designer in her fashion column
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Love_hate_small_town
Chatty Member
Replying to 4dominoes
I didn’t say that fashion journalism wasn’t relevant (although I maintain that it is not the same as investigative journalism
) I said that the stuff Pandora did was pretty light. I don’t think she was doing anything too revolutionary. I think fashion journalism is valuable but in the same way that food journalism is valuable and motoring journalism is valuable and relevant to a certain market but not the same as full on investigative journalism. I get why you might feel defensive of fashion journalism as it does get shat on. My point was that Pandora hardly wrote a memorable fashion piece (prove me wrong).
Also that a lot of the LL crew wrote about the same old tit over and over. Part of the reason is because they all come from the same background and live very similar lives. They haven’t seen much outside of their very cliquey career. They are too scared to rock the boat incase they lose a tiny bit of status/ the smallest job or miss out on a invite.
There are so many talented young writers out there who will never get an opportunity because it is so hard to break into the industry unless you are basically born into it. It’s a fun job for rich women to do a mediocre job of and get the praise heaped into them.
Clearly it’s hit a nerve with you for some reason (ahem).
And yes, of course they have won bloody awards, it’s all part of the same circle.
Loved the reality series though. Also, as stated, I think she’s great at podcasting.
I didn’t say that fashion journalism wasn’t relevant (although I maintain that it is not the same as investigative journalism
) I said that the stuff Pandora did was pretty light. I don’t think she was doing anything too revolutionary. I think fashion journalism is valuable but in the same way that food journalism is valuable and motoring journalism is valuable and relevant to a certain market but not the same as full on investigative journalism. I get why you might feel defensive of fashion journalism as it does get shat on. My point was that Pandora hardly wrote a memorable fashion piece (prove me wrong).Also that a lot of the LL crew wrote about the same old tit over and over. Part of the reason is because they all come from the same background and live very similar lives. They haven’t seen much outside of their very cliquey career. They are too scared to rock the boat incase they lose a tiny bit of status/ the smallest job or miss out on a invite.
There are so many talented young writers out there who will never get an opportunity because it is so hard to break into the industry unless you are basically born into it. It’s a fun job for rich women to do a mediocre job of and get the praise heaped into them.
Clearly it’s hit a nerve with you for some reason (ahem).
And yes, of course they have won bloody awards, it’s all part of the same circle.
Loved the reality series though. Also, as stated, I think she’s great at podcasting.
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jenmarks
VIP Member
Vanessa Friedman is another incredibly gifted fashion writer. That's what's unique about the very best journalists - they could dedicate an entire feature to an old crumb of cheese, and it would still be fascinating. Neither Dolly nor Pandora have that talent - they just don't, and they never will.
Likewise Sirin Kale (who did the podcast with Pandora) is another brilliant talent.
Likewise Sirin Kale (who did the podcast with Pandora) is another brilliant talent.
Love_hate_small_town
Chatty Member
There’s certainly merit in fashion journalism. A good fashion journalist is Sarah Mower. Read some of her work and catwalk reports and compare the level of analysis and detail to Pandora.
I think part of the issue is that these people only do newspapers, magazines and podcasts in snippets instead of in depth articles too so yes, it is shallow. The day Pandora produces an op-ed of four A4 pages full of incisive analysis in a literary review will prove me wrong
And also, part of journalism is championing and researching new ideas- I never saw Pandora tell me about an up and coming designer in her fashion column
Gawd you are so much more articulate than me
. What I tried (and failed) to say.Some really interesting points, really enjoyed reading them.
and I’m pretty sure I said a gossip columnist wasn’t the same as an investigative journalist - because they aren’t. I stand by that point.
I’ve nothing against fashion writing at all. Quite the opposite, I love reading fashion pieces, fashion history and fashion books. Fashion imo isn’t shallow at all - it’s a fascinating reflection on what’s going on in the world, acts as a point of social commentary in its own right, reflects ideologies, anxieties and a whole wealth of creativity. The costume a la victime is a fascinating fashion reaction to the French Revolution. The fashion revolution of the regency period is a fascinating reflection of how changes in trade and industry make their way into fashion, and how changes in social infrastructure manifest in how we dress. The 20s flapper is a fascinating development in feminist clothing. The miniskirt is a continuation in this. The rise of athleisure and yuppie culture, the correlation between modest hemlines and financial recessions, also fascinating and all very worthy of journalistic interest. Except to my knowledge, pandy, Dolly etc don’t write about fashion in that way.
@soph30 already articulated how pandy, Dolly and co write fairly shallow stuff. It isn’t shallow because it’s fashion, it’s shallow because they aren’t thinking or writing about it in an in-depth, clever or interesting way.
and I’m pretty sure I said a gossip columnist wasn’t the same as an investigative journalist - because they aren’t. I stand by that point.
I’ve nothing against fashion writing at all. Quite the opposite, I love reading fashion pieces, fashion history and fashion books. Fashion imo isn’t shallow at all - it’s a fascinating reflection on what’s going on in the world, acts as a point of social commentary in its own right, reflects ideologies, anxieties and a whole wealth of creativity. The costume a la victime is a fascinating fashion reaction to the French Revolution. The fashion revolution of the regency period is a fascinating reflection of how changes in trade and industry make their way into fashion, and how changes in social infrastructure manifest in how we dress. The 20s flapper is a fascinating development in feminist clothing. The miniskirt is a continuation in this. The rise of athleisure and yuppie culture, the correlation between modest hemlines and financial recessions, also fascinating and all very worthy of journalistic interest. Except to my knowledge, pandy, Dolly etc don’t write about fashion in that way.
@soph30 already articulated how pandy, Dolly and co write fairly shallow stuff. It isn’t shallow because it’s fashion, it’s shallow because they aren’t thinking or writing about it in an in-depth, clever or interesting way.
queenamber
VIP Member
Also their idea of "journalism" is asking a question on Twitter under the guise of a #JournoRequest and waiting for the replies to do their job for them.
View attachment 1698461Was this a PSA to her network? Obviously has wide-ranging geographical connections...
The exclamations of horror from the literary luvvies across London, from Islington to gentrified Brixton, can be heard as far back as their parents’ homes in Surrey.
Along with cries of “but what will my personality be now if I can’t swim at Hampstead ladies ponds and go to Gails after?! Baking banana bread was so 2020?! Someone think of our insta account content for the love of god”
BostonFernGreen
Chatty Member
I get the point that fashion writing and women’s writing in general is belittled. That’s one reason why the LLs annoy me so much, because a lot of the output is pure fluff and it dumbs us all down.
There are some fantastic writers who get into typically women’s issues (Hadley Freeman, Rachel Aviv, Janice Turner for example). But they don’t appear every 5 minutes and on every book jacket saying the same thing.
It isn’t misogynistic to say women are more than the representation in popular media. I’d say the opposite. It’s patronising to protect certain topics as off limits for critique because they’re clever girls for having a go. They are clever girls and offer some light refreshment and are brilliantly driven and savvy. But they’re also occupying a space that, in my opinion, could be freed up a little for fresh voices.
Nell Frizel’s output is stunning, thanks @soph30
There are some fantastic writers who get into typically women’s issues (Hadley Freeman, Rachel Aviv, Janice Turner for example). But they don’t appear every 5 minutes and on every book jacket saying the same thing.
It isn’t misogynistic to say women are more than the representation in popular media. I’d say the opposite. It’s patronising to protect certain topics as off limits for critique because they’re clever girls for having a go. They are clever girls and offer some light refreshment and are brilliantly driven and savvy. But they’re also occupying a space that, in my opinion, could be freed up a little for fresh voices.
Nell Frizel’s output is stunning, thanks @soph30
Love_hate_small_town
Chatty Member
Shame. You’ll miss out on some vital texts there.It’s my birthday and Christmas coming up so I’m going to have to compose a list of NOs literary wise to send to people as they know I like booksWhen’s that sodding Pandora book out so I can add it?
Jelly Bean
VIP Member
Funnily enough last night I dreamt my daughter had given me a copy of the revolting India Knight's new Mitford book for Christmas. I had to pretend I was so pleasedIt’s my birthday and Christmas coming up so I’m going to have to compose a list of NOs literary wise to send to people as they know I like books
The thought of that woman even getting dream money was galling.We just KNOW we’ll get these books as they’re in the window, marketed on displays and an easy grabFunnily enough last night I dreamt my daughter had given me a copy of the revolting India Knight's new Mitford book for Christmas. I had to pretend I was so pleased
probs multiple copies 
queenamber
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