Real Life Crime & Murder #27

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Dinate said:
It seems as if you're saying that there is no point in prosecuting him because of his age. Who decides what age is too old for a prosecution? This is a rape and murder case. If he's the perpetrator, then he's been lucky to live free for decades. He will die in jail - so be it. He won't be the last older person to be jailed for a cold case murder. Dr Brenda Page's husband was jailed last year aged 82 for her murder in 1972. William MacDowell, who murdered Renee and Andrew Macrae in 1976, was 80 when he was convicted in 2022. If this man was 85 would you think it was a waste of resources prosecuting him? What about 86? 87? He could live to be 100 or he could die before the trial commences. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be prosecuted and punished.

If the police investigate very old cold cases, the likelihood is that the perpetrator will also be very old. They will have escaped justice for decades. Who cares if they rot in jail? For the victim's friends and families they will be glad that they have some sort of closure even if the perpetrator has been able to live the full life that they denied their victims. Should the police not look at cold cases in case the perpetrator is very old? I think that it's great that they have potentially found him before he dies. It would have been awful if they had a name but the person had died before there was a chance for them to face justice.

The oldest person to have been convicted of a crime in the UK appears to have been Ralph Clarke who was 101 when he was sentenced to 13 years for historical child sex offences. The victims reported the assaults when he was 100. He died in prison when he was 105. Marcus Marcussen, a former teacher, was 91 when he was jailed for decades of child abuse. I'm sure their victims were relieved that they would face some punishment for what they did to them. Do you think that they shouldn't have been prosecuted and punished because of their ages? If Mohammad Al-Fayed were alive today he'd be 95. Would you have called any possible prosecution of him a waste of resources?

In September there was a 96 year old woman who was given a suspended sentence for dangerous driving. I don't think that anyone would disagree with that. But there's a world of difference between causing death by dangerous driving and a brutal rape and murder.

The release of young criminals because of lack of space is a completely separate matter and wholly irrelevant to whether or not a suspected murderer should be prosecuted and punished.
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He’ll probably be dead before a trial even commences, it could take years before he sees the inside of a courtroom to then be let off with a suspended sentence due to health and the fact he won’t be seen as a public threat.There’s Nazis given suspended sentences because they’re seen as not fit to stand trial .
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Cosytidy said:
Murderers get indeterminate sentences (ie they can only be released by the Parole Board), these sentences have been excluded from the early release scheme.
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Not true at all British justice is a joke at the best of times I’d rather see these types of threats incarcerated not released to make way for 92+ yr olds that probably need help to get out of bed.
 

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monga said:
He’ll probably be dead before a trial even commences, it could take years before he sees the inside of a courtroom to then be let off with a suspended sentence due to health and the fact he won’t be seen as a public threat.There’s Nazis given suspended sentences because they’re seen as not fit to stand trial .
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Not true at all British justice is a joke at the best of times I’d rather see these types of threats incarcerated not released to make way for 92+ yr olds that probably need help to get out of bed.
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None of these cases you’ve provided are murder & are examples of determinate sentences.
Most prison sentences in E&W are standard determinate sentences. This means prisoners are released on licence at a determined point in their sentence. (The early release scheme means this has been reduced from 50% of their sentence to 40% of their sentence for a cohort of offenders)
Indeterminate sentences (eg life sentences, IPP etc) means they can only be released by the Parole Board & are excluded from the early release scheme.
You may see the ‘British’ justice system as a joke but at least deal with facts. Prison sentences are in fact getting longer which is why we’re in the mess with prisons.
 
Cosytidy said:
None of these cases you’ve provided are murder & are examples of determinate sentences.
Most prison sentences in E&W are standard determinate sentences. This means prisoners are released on licence at a determined point in their sentence. (The early release scheme means this has been reduced from 50% of their sentence to 40% of their sentence for a cohort of offenders)
Indeterminate sentences (eg life sentences, IPP etc) means they can only be released by the Parole Board & are excluded from the early release scheme.
You may see the ‘British’ justice system as a joke but at least deal with facts. Prison sentences are in fact getting longer which is why we’re in the mess with prisons.
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Killing someone is murder imo even if prior intent can’t be fully proved.British justice is a farce .
 
Bread said:
I'm going to shout out BETTER MENTAL HEALTH PROVISION yet again... Because i reckon we'd have fewer people in prison if we had the mental health care we used to have available to people...
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Yep. The CJS is very expensive to administer & is in a mess with no end in sight. Too many people in prison, probation is way too bureaucratic, not enough barristers/solicitors/judges. No easy solutions to these problems.
IMO we should divert money from the CJS to housing, MH (not just medication) & addiction support. I think this would bring the crime rate down & make for a better society. However it would not be popular; the UK is obsessed with harsh punishment, from childhood onwards.
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monga said:
Two yrs for killing a child with a machete is a joke imo.
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What case are you referring to here?
 
Cosytidy said:
Yep. The CJS is very expensive to administer & is in a mess with no end in sight. Too many people in prison, probation is way too bureaucratic, not enough barristers/solicitors/judges. No easy solutions to these problems.
IMO we should divert money from the CJS to housing, MH (not just medication) & addiction support. I think this would bring the crime rate down & make for a better society. However it would not be popular; the UK is obsessed with harsh punishment, from childhood onwards.
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What case are you referring to here?
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This one …
 
monga said:
This one …
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The sentencing remarks explain why he was given a 2y8m sentence:
He didn’t attack anyone, nor encourage any violence, he supplied the machete previously. That’s not ok but that is why the sentence is low.
And while the victim was a child he was involved with a gang & turned up to fight another gang armed with a baseball bat. He was stabbed in the forearm during that fight.
I say this not to victim blame nor excuse the actions of the offenders, but to highlight the actual nuance in this case & rebut the sensationalist information you have put forward Monga as well as the press.
The sensationalism around the CJS helps no one & I’d encourage anyone to look into the facts of cases rather than the headlines.
 
Bread said:
I'm going to shout out BETTER MENTAL HEALTH PROVISION yet again... Because i reckon we'd have fewer people in prison if we had the mental health care we used to have available to people...
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Yes, because they were locked in institutions instead of prisons.
 
Cosytidy said:
The sentencing remarks explain why he was given a 2y8m sentence:
He didn’t attack anyone, nor encourage any violence, he supplied the machete previously. That’s not ok but that is why the sentence is low.
And while the victim was a child he was involved with a gang & turned up to fight another gang armed with a baseball bat. He was stabbed in the forearm during that fight.
I say this not to victim blame nor excuse the actions of the offenders, but to highlight the actual nuance in this case & rebut the sensationalist information you have put forward Monga as well as the press.
The sensationalism around the CJS helps no one & I’d encourage anyone to look into the facts of cases rather than the headlines.
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The murderer got a measly 9 yrs no doubt time spent on remand and good behaviour will shorten that further 🙄 Nothing sensationalist about crap British justice!
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Crap British justice
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The lists are endless!
 

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monga said:
The murderer got a measly 9 yrs no doubt time spent on remand and good behaviour will shorten that further 🙄 Nothing sensationalist about crap British justice!
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Good behaviour is a brilliant example of sensationalism 🤣 as it doesn’t exist. Prisoners do not get released early for good behaviour.
Why shouldn’t time in prison on remand count towards a sentence?
He got 9y as he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. For murder you only need to have the intention to cause serious harm; you don’t need to intend to murder them. So it must have been accepted that he didn’t intend to cause the victim serious harm.
You would know this if you read the judge’s sentencing remarks.
 
Cosytidy said:
The sentencing remarks explain why he was given a 2y8m sentence:
He didn’t attack anyone, nor encourage any violence, he supplied the machete previously. That’s not ok but that is why the sentence is low.
And while the victim was a child he was involved with a gang & turned up to fight another gang armed with a baseball bat. He was stabbed in the forearm during that fight.
I say this not to victim blame nor excuse the actions of the offenders, but to highlight the actual nuance in this case & rebut the sensationalist information you have put forward Monga as well as the press.
The sensationalism around the CJS helps no one & I’d encourage anyone to look into the facts of cases rather than the headlines.
Click to expand...

I say this not to victim blame nor excuse the actions of the offenders, but to highlight the actual nuance in this case & rebut the sensationalist information you have put forward Monga as well as the press.
The sensationalism around the CJS helps no one & I’d encourage anyone to look into the facts of cases rather than the headlines.

Agree.

These boys and men inhabit a culture of violence. Though the death of a child is terrible, and the families must be broken.
 
TheMiceInTheShed said:
I say this not to victim blame nor excuse the actions of the offenders, but to highlight the actual nuance in this case & rebut the sensationalist information you have put forward Monga as well as the press.
The sensationalism around the CJS helps no one & I’d encourage anyone to look into the facts of cases rather than the headlines.

Agree.

These boys and men inhabit a culture of violence. Though the death of a child is terrible, and the families must be broken.
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Yeah it’s really sad. I think this case could’ve have been reversed easily so that the victim could’ve been the perpetrator. And that is the case with a lot of gang violence.
The impact drill music had on the offenders was included in the JSR. I’m old now so some of the young cultural stuff passes me by but is quite horrifying. No wonder violence against women & girls is still so bad.
 
Cosytidy said:
Good behaviour is a brilliant example of sensationalism 🤣 as it doesn’t exist. Prisoners do not get released early for good behaviour.
Why shouldn’t time in prison on remand count towards a sentence?
He got 9y as he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. For murder you only need to have the intention to cause serious harm; you don’t need to intend to murder them. So it must have been accepted that he didn’t intend to cause the victim serious harm.
You would know this if you read the judge’s sentencing remarks.
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Check out NI judiciary ( UK ) 😂 you’re clearly deluded in what British justice entails.
 
monga said:
Check out NI judiciary ( UK ) 😂 you’re clearly deluded in what British justice entails.
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What should I check out about the NI judiciary Monga? I’m a bit confused as all the cases you’ve referred to are E&W cases.
Ok Monga you’ve got me, now if you could just tell my bosses I’m delusional about what ‘British’ justice entails so that hopefully they retire me off early & I can have a quiet life ✌️
 
Cosytidy said:
What should I check out about the NI judiciary Monga? I’m a bit confused as all the cases you’ve referred to are E&W cases.
Ok Monga you’ve got me, now if you could just tell my bosses I’m delusional about what ‘British’ justice entails so that hopefully they retire me off early & I can have a quiet life ✌
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That’s part of the British justice system it’s well documented that murderers given life sentences are in fact released early ( good behaviour taken into account) instead they’re put on licence and free to live amongst us not incarcerated as you’re making out…British justice is a joke.
 
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