Tiffany Thinks #23

[Make sense of it!]

I’m sure being Vegan limits what one can eat. Some of their meals are quite interesting indeed

As Saydee said, no amount of dietary changes is going to change Jenny's outcome. Credit where it's due Jenny had an excellent diet prior to her diagnosis, was very fit and healthy lifestyle. At least she listens to her Drs about her diet and follows the advice given.
---

About Jenny: I watched a few vlogs of her, and it's indeed very sad; I'm not annoyed by her, she seems to be genuine (not like T)... With ALL those cancer vloggers I question what's their motive? Is it really educating people, make people aware to go and get your gyn appointments, breast checks, etc? Maybe that's a small part of their motives, but the main thing is MONEY. Not just for princess T, they are all on youtube to collect money, and that's fine if they would just be honest about it and not cover up with "I want to make people aware", "I want to leave footage for my children", blablabla

You nailed it

 

[Saydee]

Just for info.
When my husband was on treatment and it was becoming obvious that treatment was failing we decided to involve an integrated oncologist privately. Was it correct that by restricting glucose or glutamine, tumors could be 'starved'? It was worth a try, we had absolutely nothing to lose.
Diet was overhauled, and a plant based diet was started. No sugars, no proteins, metformin, statin, and some other "off labels". Hyperbaric oxygen chambers, IV vitamin c etc, magnesium baths,
My husbands oncologist said there was absolutely no data to support it, but he agreed that it wouldn't do any harm (or so we all thought). Well it did. Weight plummeted very very very quickly, he became weak and fatigue hit him quite badly. He was soon diagnosed with sarcopenia/cachexia, which was a whole new battle.
The new diet did nothing for tumour growth and resulted in making the patient too weak.
Do I believe restricting glucose, glutamine, cysteine etc may help a patient? Maybe for those looking who are NED and hoping to prevent a recurrence? Maybe for those with extremely slow growing cancers. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with stage 4 disease, because you need strength to tolerate treatments.
Of course, processed foods, sugar etc can contribute to inflammation which isn't good.
I say - Stick with a BALANCED diet. Each to their own though.
---

I think it's the comments (or those adding them) that are the issue. I never used to read comments, didn't even realise they were there for a while! In general, I simply would not think of adding a comment to a video even less a gushing, sycophantic nonsense that the T sheep leave. What is the actual point? Some channels I see the point, especially the smaller ones where the engagement ends up being a proper two-way thing. But comments for comments sake
The creators read the comments and I think some make adjustments to their content accordingly, and it becomes very circular, feeding off the vibes. Lots of people are getting off on pretending T is their child/grandchild/friend, and T feeds them.

It is unhealthy for sure. I have seen various comments from people saying they now think and feel like Amma, T & Matt are extended family and they love seeing them 3 times a week.

 

[ScrattyRatty]

I have been reading up about diet and cancer (trying to help my friend who has literally been told to go home and build herself up because she is not strong enough for either chemo or an op at the moment. Her liver is not functioning correctly and they don't know why. No dietary advice given at all).

Cancer cells will feed just as normal cells do, and if you try to starve the cancer you also starve the body is what I take from everything I have read. There is evidence that eating too much sugar may be a risk factor for some cancers, but no evidence that cutting sugar out of your diet will help an existing cancer.

 

[ginnyw]

Just for info.
When my husband was on treatment and it was becoming obvious that treatment was failing we decided to involve an integrated oncologist privately. Was it correct that by restricting glucose or glutamine, tumors could be 'starved'? It was worth a try, we had absolutely nothing to lose.
Diet was overhauled, and a plant based diet was started. No sugars, no proteins, metformin, statin, and some other "off labels". Hyperbaric oxygen chambers, IV vitamin c etc, magnesium baths,
My husbands oncologist said there was absolutely no data to support it, but he agreed that it wouldn't do any harm (or so we all thought). Well it did. Weight plummeted very very very quickly, he became weak and fatigue hit him quite badly. He was soon diagnosed with sarcopenia/cachexia, which was a whole new battle.
The new diet did nothing for tumour growth and resulted in making the patient too weak.
Do I believe restricting glucose, glutamine, cysteine etc may help a patient? Maybe for those looking who are NED and hoping to prevent a recurrence? Maybe for those with extremely slow growing cancers. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with stage 4 disease, because you need strength to tolerate treatments.
Of course, processed foods, sugar etc can contribute to inflammation which isn't good.
I say - Stick with a BALANCED diet. Each to their own though.
---

It is unhealthy for sure. I have seen various comments from people saying they now think and feel like Amma, T & Matt are extended family and they love seeing them 3 times a week.

Balanced diet is the way to go, imo. I've stuck to the Mediterranean diet for years due to its anti-inflammatory properties. Plus it means I can drink red wine and not feel TOO bad when I fall off the wagon and eat my own body weight in crisps.

 

[Saydee]

I have been reading up about diet and cancer (trying to help my friend who has literally been told to go home and build herself up because she is not strong enough for either chemo or an op at the moment. Her liver is not functioning correctly and they don't know why. No dietary advice given at all).

Cancer cells will feed just as normal cells do, and if you try to starve the cancer you also starve the body is what I take from everything I have read. There is evidence that eating too much sugar may be a risk factor for some cancers, but no evidence that cutting sugar out of your diet will help an existing cancer.

Ratty, is your friend able to eat and drink?

 

[ScrattyRatty]

Ratty, is your friend able to eat and drink?

Hi Saydee, yes, she is fine in that sense. She has lost a lot of weight, she was in hospital for a total of about 11 weeks, and a lot of that time she was stuck in bed and of course on hospital food and those ghastly drinks. She is still jaundiced, so we are hoping that the replacement stent put in last week will work. One Dr basically said that if it doesn't that's it . Desperately trying to convince her to go elsewhere.
I assume she needs to build herself with a poorly functioning liver, so that sounds like a bit of a balancing act to me. I can't believe they are just leaving her to it.

 

[mayday mayday]

Hi Saydee, yes, she is fine in that sense. She has lost a lot of weight, she was in hospital for a total of about 11 weeks, and a lot of that time she was stuck in bed and of course on hospital food and those ghastly drinks. She is still jaundiced, so we are hoping that the replacement stent put in last week will work. One Dr basically said that if it doesn't that's it . Desperately trying to convince her to go elsewhere.
I assume she needs to build herself with a poorly functioning liver, so that sounds like a bit of a balancing act to me. I can't believe they are just leaving her to it.

Oh no ... please I hope she is able to get a second opinion ASAP!!! especially with an oncologist who concentrates on GI cancers. Those biliary/liver/intrahepatic tumors are so complex to begin with.

 

[ScrattyRatty]

Oh no ... please I hope she is able to get a second opinion ASAP!!! especially with an oncologist who concentrates on GI cancers. Those biliary/liver/intrahepatic tumors are so complex to begin with.

The hospital seem clueless, and to be honest both my friend and her husband don't question it. We are giving her a few days to get her head together at home and then will start giving her advice about how to get a second opinion, she doesn't know where to start.

 

[Miriam3]

[QUOTE="Saydee, post: 14997007, member: 366803"

No diet is about to change Jenny's outcome.

[/QUOTE]

If I had stage 4 cancer and was faced with the probability of leaving my children without a mother, I’d be looking for any possible means to extend my life for any amount of time, even one day. Of course, it’s easier to just believe one doctor who says diet won’t make any difference or someone on the internet with anecdotal “evidence” that diet won’t effect tumor growth, the effectiveness of treatment, or even inflammation, and cry and eat comfort food. I’d personally try to live a little longer and be in less pain while I’m alive.

There are studies being done re keto diet and effect on cancer, including lung ca. Here’s an example: https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/145207

There’s also some info available re fasting and the benefits of autophagy on tumors, as well as fasting before chemo.

We vigorously criticize T for her eating habits but it’s “cruel” to see other suffering cancer patients and be concerned that sympathy seeking on YouTube might not be the best use of their time. It really is about money and attention. Maybe crying makes more money. It certainly attracts more sycophants. Let’s be honest, the individualized treatment that Jenny receives now will not change her ultimate outcome.

Edited to add: Some people have mentioned cachexia. This not a concern for Jenny nor is a keto diet likely to make her in any way malnourished. I never suggested that her diet caused her cancer, though many have suggested that it caused T’s.

 

[JellyBellyBeanie]

I have a bit of a different opinion here. For reference I lost my mum to bowel cancer 22 years ago when I was only 13 years old. I would much rather my mother eat all her favourite foods and all the treats rather than give me one extra day. The way I see it if you are at the end of life surely that should be the time where you have a duck it attitude (pardon my friench) and do what you want, eat what you want, live how you want because if you can’t then where can you. I have very vivid memories of my dad cooking up lobster dinners and caviar and all the cakes and pastries and drinking champagne and she ate like she was royalty until she wasn’t able. I think I would do the exact same.

 

[suzeq]

There are studies being done re keto diet and effect on cancer, including lung ca. Here’s an example: https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/145207

There’s also some info available re fasting and the benefits of autophagy on tumors, as well as fasting before chemo.

The article you reference appears to hypothesise a lot and extrapolate from a mice study. Has anything more applicable to cancer in humans relating to diet been tested? Any direct evidence either pre-cancer or post diagnosis? I do believe they have studies on types of diet and rates of bowel cancers in different countries, so I do think there's some macro evidence associating dietary trends and rates of certain cancers.

I wouldn't imagine it easy for a vegan to transfer to a keto diet which contains so much animal protein. It goes against their food philosophy, so without good evidence supporting benefits and impact, I'd say it could well have a deleterious effect on mental well-being. Their kids eat this way too, Jenny and Kyle are very committed to even bringing alternate vegan treats to children parties to avoid any nonvegan ones offered there. So, this family isn't playing around with their food choices. With so many far off and unsupported cancer "treatments" being plied on the internet, I'm sure anyone with cancer is hesitant to embrace something based on testimonials. You end up going down rabbit holes of desperation, spending a lot of money on snake oil "cures", and feeling depressed when nothing seems to work after the initial enthusiasm and placebo effect wear off.

I'd be interested if diet can impact cancer, but I'd want to see some better evidence of efficacy before I personally would incorporate a keto diet into my life. I have seen a few cancer vloggers who appear to follow something similar to a keto diet, but I haven't heard them associating any cancer improvements to it or observing better outcomes. That would be anecdotal in any event, and I probably wouldn't be swayed by internet testimonials at all. I'd be interested in controlled studies.

 

[Miriam3]

I have a bit of a different opinion here. For reference I lost my mum to bowel cancer 22 years ago when I was only 13 years old. I would much rather my mother eat all her favourite foods and all the treats rather than give me one extra day. The way I see it if you are at the end of life surely that should be the time where you have a duck it attitude (pardon my friench) and do what you want, eat what you want, live how you want because if you can’t then where can you. I have very vivid memories of my dad cooking up lobster dinners and caviar and all the cakes and pastries and drinking champagne and she ate like she was royalty until she wasn’t able. I think I would do the exact same.

I’m so sorry you lost your mum, and of course, under any circumstances, everyone should have support in choosing their own course of treatment, or no treatment at all.

Tiffany and Jenny, and many other cancer “influencers” on YouTube are operating a business and I think of Tattle as sort of a Better Business Bureau where we get to leave our honest reviews and comments re their businesses. These “businesses” are unconcerned with customer satisfaction so we are here.

I use up most of my empathy and deep caring with my own family members as well strangers as part of my job so I don’t have much left for people who cry for money and/or attention on the internet. I’m here to vent and gossip, partly for my own sanity and defense against burn out.
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The article you reference appears to hypothesise a lot and extrapolate from a mice study. Has anything more applicable to cancer in humans relating to diet been tested? Any direct evidence either pre-cancer or post diagnosis? I do believe they have studies on types of diet and rates of bowel cancers in different countries, so I do think there's some macro evidence associating dietary trends and rates of certain cancers.

I wouldn't imagine it easy for a vegan to transfer to a keto diet which contains so much animal protein. It goes against their food philosophy, so without good evidence supporting benefits and impact, I'd say it could well have a deleterious effect on mental well-being. Their kids eat this way too, Jenny and Kyle are very committed to even bringing alternate vegan treats to children parties to avoid any nonvegan ones offered there. So, this family isn't playing around with their food choices. With so many far off and unsupported cancer "treatments" being plied on the internet, I'm sure anyone with cancer is hesitant to embrace something based on testimonials. You end up going down rabbit holes of desperation, spending a lot of money on snake oil "cures", and feeling depressed when nothing seems to work after the initial enthusiasm and placebo effect wear off.

I'd be interested if diet can impact cancer, but I'd want to see some better evidence of efficacy before I personally would incorporate a keto diet into my life. I have seen a few cancer vloggers who appear to follow something similar to a keto diet, but I haven't heard them associating any cancer improvements to it or observing better outcomes. That would be anecdotal in any event, and I probably wouldn't be swayed by internet testimonials at all. I'd be interested in controlled studies.

There have been human studies but I’m not going to search for those. Probably the clinical trial that Jenny is a part of began with animal studies and now she is a part of a human study. It may buy her a little more time. Of course, she has every right to prioritize the health of the animals over her own. But I don’t have to watch and I can still complain here. She appears to eat cheese and it looked like chicken wings or unhealthy deep fried something on their last feast. She’s not following that diet for health reasons so it must be an ethical issue. She’s making memories with her children with the dinner dates etc. I get it. But the sycophants in the comments as well as some of the other clickbait recently (not to mention her shoving her dog out of the field of view of her most recent video) are raising red flags.

I see so many people suffering on a daily basis that maybe I need to just stay on the shallow end of the internet for a while. This is all venting. I regularly care for people who are losing multiple limbs because they don’t follow a diabetic diet. They cry and I change their dressings and their family members bring them soda from home. I’ve had patients who were blind from diabetes non-compliance who’ve come out of amputation surgery who order a carb laden feast and then ask me to feed to to them. There are patients in hospital who doctors no longer bother ordering a diabetic diet for, or any special diet for conditions for which it is standard protocol, because why bother? Or is it because their paychecks depend on these chronic illnesses?

Jenny can eat what she wants and so can Tiffany. They don’t care what I think, neither does anyone here and it’s all just venting to me so …

 

[Saydee]

The hospital seem clueless, and to be honest both my friend and her husband don't question it. We are giving her a few days to get her head together at home and then will start giving her advice about how to get a second opinion, she doesn't know where to start.

The process is actually very easy.
All cancer patients are entitled to a second opinion via the NHS, at a hospital of their choice, anywhere in the UK. Most consultants/oncologists actually encourage it and won't be offended.
How we did it? We asked the consultant if we could have the second opinion and he said sure. He didn't think a second opinion would differ to his teams, but he said to go ahead. He said we could do it via his trust or via our family GP. Family GP said he felt it would speed up the process if it was done via the hospital.
We located the hospital which specialized in cancer and asked to be referred there please. The consultant wrote to the hospital electronically. An appointment was arranged 2 weeks later. During that 2 weeks we was given 5 discs with all my husbands scans on, and 1 disc with his medical records on which the hospital issued to use free of charge with it being cancer. We attended the appointment 2 weeks later and handed over the discs. This opened up a complete new avenue for us, different opinion, surgical options and access to trials.
It really isn't as daunting as people would think.

Some info for your Ratty https://elht.nhs.uk/patients/how-seek-second-opinion

 

[Daisychain4]

The process is actually very easy.
All cancer patients are entitled to a second opinion via the NHS, at a hospital of their choice, anywhere in the UK. Most consultants/oncologists actually encourage it and won't be offended.
How we did it? We asked the consultant if we could have the second opinion and he said sure. He didn't think a second opinion would differ to his teams, but he said to go ahead. He said we could do it via his trust or via our family GP. Family GP said he felt it would speed up the process if it was done via the hospital.
We located the hospital which specialized in cancer and asked to be referred there please. The consultant wrote to the hospital electronically. An appointment was arranged 2 weeks later. During that 2 weeks we was given 5 discs with all my husbands scans on, and 1 disc with his medical records on which the hospital issued to use free of charge with it being cancer. We attended the appointment 2 weeks later and handed over the discs. This opened up a complete new avenue for us, different opinion, surgical options and access to trials.
It really isn't as daunting as people would think.

Some info for your Ratty https://elht.nhs.uk/patients/how-seek-second-opinion

You are so informative and so kind Saydee. I have seen you offer advice to so many. You’re certainly in the right profession being amongst ’healthcare’. The NHS are very lucky to have staff like you

 

[Saydee]

The article you reference appears to hypothesise a lot and extrapolate from a mice study. Has anything more applicable to cancer in humans relating to diet been tested? Any direct evidence either pre-cancer or post diagnosis? I do believe they have studies on types of diet and rates of bowel cancers in different countries, so I do think there's some macro evidence associating dietary trends and rates of certain cancers.

I wouldn't imagine it easy for a vegan to transfer to a keto diet which contains so much animal protein. It goes against their food philosophy, so without good evidence supporting benefits and impact, I'd say it could well have a deleterious effect on mental well-being. Their kids eat this way too, Jenny and Kyle are very committed to even bringing alternate vegan treats to children parties to avoid any nonvegan ones offered there. So, this family isn't playing around with their food choices. With so many far off and unsupported cancer "treatments" being plied on the internet, I'm sure anyone with cancer is hesitant to embrace something based on testimonials. You end up going down rabbit holes of desperation, spending a lot of money on snake oil "cures", and feeling depressed when nothing seems to work after the initial enthusiasm and placebo effect wear off.

I'd be interested if diet can impact cancer, but I'd want to see some better evidence of efficacy before I personally would incorporate a keto diet into my life. I have seen a few cancer vloggers who appear to follow something similar to a keto diet, but I haven't heard them associating any cancer improvements to it or observing better outcomes. That would be anecdotal in any event, and I probably wouldn't be swayed by internet testimonials at all. I'd be interested in controlled studies.

There are a few trials on the clinicaltrials.gov website. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05338307

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

 

[ScrattyRatty]

The process is actually very easy.
All cancer patients are entitled to a second opinion via the NHS, at a hospital of their choice, anywhere in the UK. Most consultants/oncologists actually encourage it and won't be offended.
How we did it?
It really isn't as daunting as people would think...

...Some info for your Ratty https://elht.nhs.uk/patients/how-seek-second-opinion

Thanks so much Saydee, I will copy that for her if you don't mind. This is exactly what she needs to see ❤

 

[Saydee]

You are so informative and so kind Saydee. I have seen you offer advice to so many. You’re certainly in the right profession being amongst ’healthcare’. The NHS are very lucky to have staff like you

[QUOTE="Saydee, post: 14997007, member: 366803"

No diet is about to change Jenny's outcome.

We vigorously criticize T for her eating habits but it’s “cruel” to see other suffering cancer patients and be concerned that sympathy seeking on YouTube might not be the best use of their time. It really is about money and attention. Maybe crying makes more money. It certainly attracts more sycophants. Let’s be honest, the individualized treatment that Jenny receives now will not change her ultimate outcome.

Edited to add: Some people have mentioned cachexia. This not a concern for Jenny nor is a keto diet likely to make her in any way malnourished. I never suggested that her diet caused her cancer, though many have suggested that it caused T’s.
[/QUOTE]

Ahhh I don't think Jenny sympathy seeks? Do you really? I find Jenny to be very open and honest. When Jenny gets emotional its usually right before scan results, and I completely understand those fears?

T's diet before her diagnosis was quite shocking. Long periods without eating anything, followed by piles of junk food binging. Right now T is in a very good position @ NED. Tiffany openly says that she made changes, she started making fresh juice daily (although it was Amma). And then she goes and follows that fresh juice up with junk and more junk food.

 

[c.sabatier]

Pescovegetarians have lower risks of developing colorectal cancers than vegans or meat-eaters. Studies have spanned over 20 years, so sometimes just the conclusions are written in websites such as the following from the Cleveland Clinic, which is in the US top ten cancer treatment centers.

What To Eat To Lower Your Risk of Colon Cancer

Many types of cancer aren’t preventable. But when it comes to colon cancer, your lifestyle and habits can play a huge role in helping lower your risk. A colorectal surgeon weighs in on what to eat (and what to avoid) to maintain colon health and decrease your risk.

health.clevelandclinic.org

The study, published in the journal JAMA Internal Medicine, found a pesco-vegetarian diet — dominated by fruits and vegetables and including a moderate amount of fish — is associated with a 45% reduced risk for colorectal cancers compared to people whose diets include meat.

 

[suzeq]

There are a few trials on the clinicaltrials.gov website. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05338307

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

Thanks for that . There appears to be some health improvement when the patients are overweight, particular metabolic disorders? Looking through them and the further studies that cite one of them, this macroanalysis appears to summarise the studies to date: improvements in a # of measures, many still in animal models, but still equivocal with respect to impact on cancer:

Insulin-Lowering Diets in Metastatic Cancer - PubMed

Hyperinsulinemia is an independent risk factor for cancer mortality. Insulin-lowering dietary strategies such as calorie restriction (CR), low-carbohydrate or ketogenic diets (KD), and intermittent fasting (IF) are aimed at reducing systemic stores of nutrients utilized by cancer cells...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Insulin-Lowering Diets in Metastatic Cancer
Sherry Shen 1, Neil M Iyengar 1 2

• PMID: 36079800
• PMCID: PMC9460605
• DOI: 10.3390/nu14173542

Abstract

Abstract
Hyperinsulinemia is an independent risk factor for cancer mortality. Insulin-lowering dietary strategies such as calorie restriction (CR), low-carbohydrate or ketogenic diets (KD), and intermittent fasting (IF) are aimed at reducing systemic stores of nutrients utilized by cancer cells, attenuating insulin-related growth signaling, and improving obesity-related metabolic parameters. In this narrative review, we searched the published literature for studies that tested various insulin-lowering diets in metastatic cancer in preclinical and clinical settings.

A total of 23 studies were identified. Of these, 14 were preclinical studies of dietary strategies that demonstrated improvements in insulin levels, inhibition of metastasis, and/or reduction in metastatic disease burden in animal models.

The remaining nine clinical studies tested carbohydrate restriction, KD, or IF strategies which appear to be safe and feasible in patients with metastatic cancer. These approaches have also been shown to improve serum insulin and other metabolic parameters. Though promising, the anti-cancer efficacy of these interventions, such as impact on tumor response, disease-specific-, and overall survival, have not yet been conclusively demonstrated. Studies that are adequately powered to evaluate whether insulin-lowering diets improve cancer outcomes are warranted.

 

[Saydee]

You are so informative and so kind Saydee. I have seen you offer advice to so many. You’re certainly in the right profession being amongst ’healthcare’. The NHS are very lucky to have staff like you

Thanks Daisy.
As much as I love our NHS, it really is a squeaky wheel that needs oiling.