The Royal Family #40

[cee-bee]

I think that they whole thing is an absolute mess and he never should have been pushed to marry Diana. What came after that stems so much from that point. You've had more than one rant about Camilla on this thread with only a passing comment about Charles which indicates very strongly where you see blame. Lots of people hire PR consultants if they're in the public eye, they won't be the only ones in the RF to do this and it doesn't make anybody a witch. I've personally never met any of them and am not really interested in doing so but a friend of mine worked with Camilla on a literary project and was very complimentary about how hard working and knowledgeable she was on the subject so we can all quote facts but individual ones don't cover the complexity of any body in full.

Um hardly. I made one other post about Camilla - hardly a rant when this is a discussion forum.

I’ve said repeatedly about Charles being just as bad, but the PR was hired specifically for Camilla’s image and to a lesser extent, Charles’. And I posted that Camilla (and Charles’) actions attested to their character - not just a response from Diana’s fandom.

And while there’s lots to criticise Charles for - that wasn’t the direction the thread went in. I was asked for my opinion on Camilla. More than happy to relay my distaste for Charles, if you’d asked.

Someone being hard working and knowledgeable on a project doesn’t make them a fundamentally good person. I have no doubt Camilla has lots of good aspects to her personality. But like I said before… she’s also consistently been pretty awful.

I’m slightly younger than Camilla/Charles were when Diana married Charles, and I honestly can’t imagine behaving that callously towards a 19 year old. My feelings towards teenagers that age tend to be motherly, or sisterly, and protective. Diana was very obviously unsure of herself and vulnerable. I just can’t imagine colluding with someone to gaslight and betray someone that young, in that way.
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Of course she went to Charles and Diana’s wedding … they were part of the inner circle, and not just through her relationship with Charles. Andrew’s parents were close to the to the Queen Mum and is her god son (I think) and was also a page at The Queen’s coronation. He is also god father to Zara. When Charles and Camilla married, he and his second wife were guests at the wedding. When his second wife passed away, Anne went to the funeral and Camilla the memorial service.

As has been said so many times before, they operate to their own rules and mores, for all their PR likes to tell us otherwise.

Yeh I get that, but Charles has tons of godchildren. It’s a ceremonial thing and isn’t indicative of an especially close relationship. I get your point that those circles are pretty incestuous and weird.

But I’m sorry, if I still had feelings for my ex there’s no way in hell I’m going to his wedding with my kids in tow. You’d just pull a sickie that day, or politely decline. I don’t care if my husband was involved in the wedding party, or if it was my son’s godfather. It’s just plain off and wrong.

But Camilla and Charles were exchanging jewellery which suggests it was more than a friendship then, and I suspect it was a bit of a power move on Camilla’s part to turn up.

 

[Boredofgrey]

I’ve really grown to like Camilla. She’s no fuss, on with the job. She supports wonderful causes. Looks like she’d be fun at a party (well previously, she’s looking unsteady in her feet at the mo). Her and Charles were clearly made for each other. 50 years in love. It’s heartbreaking that the Diana stuff happened but they split up in 1992. Years before she died. I really dislike the home wrecking witch narrative.

 

[Soncna]

There are so many negative posts about Kate and Carol here. But what did Camilla achieve before marrying Charles? Wife and a mother…and?

 

[Boring Monday]

Um hardly. I made one other post about Camilla - hardly a rant when this is a discussion forum.

I’ve said repeatedly about Charles being just as bad, but the PR was hired specifically for Camilla’s image and to a lesser extent, Charles’. And I posted that Camilla (and Charles’) actions attested to their character - not just a response from Diana’s fandom.

And while there’s lots to criticise Charles for - that wasn’t the direction the thread went in. I was asked for my opinion on Camilla. More than happy to relay my distaste for Charles, if you’d asked.

Someone being hard working and knowledgeable on a project doesn’t make them a fundamentally good person. I have no doubt Camilla has lots of good aspects to her personality. But like I said before… she’s also consistently been pretty awful.

I’m slightly younger than Camilla/Charles were when Diana married Charles, and I honestly can’t imagine behaving that callously towards a 19 year old. My feelings towards teenagers that age tend to be motherly, or sisterly, and protective. Diana was very obviously unsure of herself and vulnerable. I just can’t imagine colluding with someone to gaslight and betray someone that young, in that way.
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Yeh I get that, but Charles has tons of godchildren. It’s a ceremonial thing and isn’t indicative of an especially close relationship. I get your point that those circles are pretty incestuous and weird.

But I’m sorry, if I still had feelings for my ex there’s no way in hell I’m going to his wedding with my kids in tow. You’d just pull a sickie that day, or politely decline. I don’t care if my husband was involved in the wedding party, or if it was my son’s godfather. It’s just plain off and wrong.

But Camilla and Charles were exchanging jewellery which suggests it was more than a friendship then, and I suspect it was a bit of a power move on Camilla’s part to turn up.

But it’s like we’ve said, it’s about appearances … Andrew was actually part of the ceremonial stuff At the wedding. Camilla would be more his plus one than invited her own right. If she hadn’t gone it would have raised more eyebrows than if she did.

 

[cee-bee]

But it’s like we’ve said, it’s about appearances … Andrew was actually part of the ceremonial stuff At the wedding. Camilla would be more his plus one than invited her own right. If she hadn’t gone it would have raised more eyebrows than if she did.

They weren’t invited to the wedding reception.

There was 2500 people at that church ceremony. Trust me, nobody would’ve batted an eyelid if she hadn’t turned up.
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I’ve really grown to like Camilla. She’s no fuss, on with the job. She supports wonderful causes. Looks like she’d be fun at a party (well previously, she’s looking unsteady in her feet at the mo). Her and Charles were clearly made for each other. 50 years in love. It’s heartbreaking that the Diana stuff happened but they split up in 1992. Years before she died. I really dislike the home wrecking witch narrative.

I mean, it’s her job to support wonderful causes.

If they were made for each other… you have to wonder why she went off married and had children with another man? In Diana’s biography, (which is always going to be pro Diana but let’s assume it’s not going to print obvious lies) Sarah Bradford claimed Camilla was in love with APB and had been dating him since 1967, only dating dating Charles in 1970 to piss him off on one of their breaks. He’d gone off with Princess Anne so it was her way of paying him back supposedly.

But Charles obviously was shipped off to the navy in December 1972. No biggy right? If you’re besotted with someone you wait for them to get back.

But nope, Camilla was engaged to APB in March - within a few months. And married in that summer. I mean, weird flex when you’re “made for” someone else.

I don’t like the home wrecking witch narrative either. But I do really dislike the calculated way they manipulated and gaslit a teenage girl. There’s something especially callous and cruel in that that goes beyond your run-of-the-mill extramarital affair.

 

[stardust21]

Regarding Camilla being at their wedding, I think this is some sort of weird and wonderful tradition of the Royal Family. Harry and William both also had ex’s at their weddings.

 

[cee-bee]

Regarding Camilla being at their wedding, I think this is some sort of weird and wonderful tradition of the Royal Family. Harry and William both also had ex’s at their weddings.

I don’t think being friendly with an ex and inviting them to your wedding as a friend is especially weird, especially when your bride knows the history.

But the crucial differences are, neither William or Harry are exchanging romantic gifts with their exes

Neither of them were still romantically involved with their exes

And neither of them have continued an affair (physically or emotionally) while married to their wives (that we know of anyway).

Sorry but Camilla was worldly enough and grown up enough to know what she was doing. I can’t see any other reasonable explanation for sending your ex jewellery near his wedding, then turning up - if it isn’t to show up and let everyone know you’ve still got a claim.

If I was heartbroken at my ex ending any romantic relationship with me to marry someone else, it would sicken me to watch the wedding. Not a chance in hell I’d turn up. The only conclusion I can come to is that Camilla wasn’t bothered because she knew there was an expiry date on the whole thing she just has to sit and wait out.

We’ll never know the inner workings of their minds but I always got the impression Charles was slowly prepping Diana to accept Camilla as his mistress. And I think he invited her for this purpose. That way he could lay the foundations while still deluding himself he was taking his marriage seriously and not outright exploiting a teenage girl.

 

[jkroche95]

Camilla was cheated on and she cheated.
Diana was cheated on and she cheated.

I wonder if C was more conventionally attractive and D not, would opinions be different? Would it be seen as a forbidden love story?

 

[elliebee27]

Diana knew what she was getting into and wanted it badly. She wasn't as naive as she portrayed herself, imo - she was 19/20, sure, but grew up in that milieu, she knew. I think she and Charles though did go into it with good intentions. They weren't romantically involved, he and Camilla, until later. AFAIK Diana cheated first. I don't understand this view of her being some wonderful saint, a perfect victim, the perfect mother - everyone was a hot mess. They were never going to work, with both being SO emotionally damaged from fucked up upbringings.

No one exploited her. She knew exactly how to sell herself later as the victim imo, with a successful PR campaign - a thing Harry knows very well how to do himself too.

I appreciate Camilla's work with domestic violence and literacy. It's important stuff. I don't think Camilla ever wanted to marry him, either. Would rather now be a full-time granny in the countryside especially with her poor health.

If she only wore a seatbelt I doubt she would have bene canonized, she was a hot mess before she died flitting around with these playboys.

 

[cee-bee]

Camilla was cheated on and she cheated.
Diana was cheated on and she cheated.

I wonder if C was more conventionally attractive and D not, would opinions be different? Would it be seen as a forbidden love story?

No, because Diana didn’t manipulate a vulnerable teenage girl when she was cheated on. She didn’t collude to trick someone into entering a marriage. She didn’t profess to love someone then head off and marry someone else within a matter of months.

Their looks have very little to do with it, the huge difference in circumstances does.

Diana was crappy for sleeping married men, and that makes her selfish and deceitful… but also desperate for love and affection.

Camilla did that too but worse.
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Diana knew what she was getting into and wanted it badly. She wasn't as naive as she portrayed herself, imo - she was 19/20, sure, but grew up in that milieu, she knew. I think she and Charles though did go into it with good intentions. They weren't romantically involved, he and Camilla, until later. AFAIK Diana cheated first. I don't understand this view of her being some wonderful saint, a perfect victim, the perfect mother - everyone was a hot mess. They were never going to work, with both being SO emotionally damaged from fucked up upbringings.

No one exploited her. She knew exactly how to sell herself later as the victim imo, with a successful PR campaign - a thing Harry knows very well how to do himself too.

I appreciate Camilla's work with domestic violence and literacy. It's important stuff. I don't think Camilla ever wanted to marry him, either. Would rather now be a full-time granny in the countryside especially with her poor health.

If she only wore a seatbelt I doubt she would have bene canonized, she was a hot mess before she died flitting around with these playboys.

It’s not a Diana v Charles/Camilla situation though.

Objectively, what they did was pretty horrendous regardless of how Diana conducted herself before or after.

 

[elliebee27]

See, I don't believe she was some vulnerable teenage girl: she had agency, she knew the family, had grown up around these people, she knew what she was getting into. Cheating is wrong, and it was a hot mess of two people temperamentally unsuited who sought affection so desperately, they couldn't ever find it in each other. Nobody manipulated her. Nobody tricked her.

I also do think C&D loved each other in their own weird, limited ways. He was clearly devastated when she died. I remember reading when she died they were actually on good terms.

IMO they were all more victims of the BRF culture and protocol than victims of one another. Everyone was crappy to everyone. It was a tragic situation all around.

Then we end up with people like Kate marrying in who are docile, turn a blind eye, and reap the benefits.

Diana had a very great PR team to create this image of her as the ultimate victim and it still works.

 

[Boredofgrey]

They weren’t invited to the wedding reception.

There was 2500 people at that church ceremony. Trust me, nobody would’ve batted an eyelid if she hadn’t turned up.
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I mean, it’s her job to support wonderful causes.

If they were made for each other… you have to wonder why she went off married and had children with another man? In Diana’s biography, (which is always going to be pro Diana but let’s assume it’s not going to print obvious lies) Sarah Bradford claimed Camilla was in love with APB and had been dating him since 1967, only dating dating Charles in 1970 to piss him off on one of their breaks. He’d gone off with Princess Anne so it was her way of paying him back supposedly.

But Charles obviously was shipped off to the navy in December 1972. No biggy right? If you’re besotted with someone you wait for them to get back.

But nope, Camilla was engaged to APB in March - within a few months. And married in that summer. I mean, weird flex when you’re “made for” someone else.

I don’t like the home wrecking witch narrative either. But I do really dislike the calculated way they manipulated and gaslit a teenage girl. There’s something especially callous and cruel in that that goes beyond your run-of-the-mill extramarital affair.

You are one who called her a witch though? I’m not looking for an argument here. I can accept we all have different points of view. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Perhaps there was manipulation of Diana in the early days but by the late 80’s she very much manipulated back at every chance she got.

 

[cee-bee]

See, I don't believe she was some vulnerable teenage girl: she had agency, she knew the family, had grown up around these people, she knew what she was getting into. Cheating is wrong, and it was a hot mess of two people temperamentally unsuited who sought affection so desperately, they couldn't ever find it in each other. Nobody manipulated her. Nobody tricked her.

I also do think C&D loved each other in their own weird, limited ways. He was clearly devastated when she died. I remember reading when she died they were actually on good terms.

IMO they were all more victims of the BRF culture and protocol than victims of one another. Everyone was crappy to everyone. It was a tragic situation all around.

Then we end up with people like Kate marrying in who are docile, turn a blind eye, and reap the benefits.

Diana had a very great PR team to create this image of her as the ultimate victim and it still works.

What do you think counts as a vulnerable teenage girl though?

She came from a broken home with a “bully” stepmother, was a teenager with very little life experience, in the middle of an eating disorder…

She grew up with Andrew and Edward, not Charles. And didn’t realise he’d had a thing with Camilla. He had allegedly told her that Camilla was just a friend, then she later found out they’d been more than that. So she was lied in a very literal, deliberate way.

In a more subtle way perhaps, Diana entered into that relationship in good faith. There’s no suggestion or hint that she didn’t fully intend to be a committed wife.

Charles however, invited his recent ex, exchanged romantic gifts etc, let her down in the engagement interview. He claimed that he gave the marriage a shot but IMO, you don’t humiliate your bride to be by saying “whatever love is” on TV. You don’t buy a necklace for your ex on the eve of your wedding if you are committed to your vows. When Diana took recordings with her voice coach, she relayed how Charles had told her “"Well, I refuse to be the only Prince of Wales who never had a mistress." Which doesn’t exactly seem consistent with the mindset that he entered into the marriage in good faith. Diana also claimed in the same tapes that Prince Philip had told Charles to go back to Camilla if things with Diana didn’t work out within 5 years - which is exactly what happened.

Maybe Diana isn’t 100% reliable but she has zero expectation that these would become public. She also said “I was brought up in the sense that, if you got engaged to someone, you loved them,”

It’s very obvious based on what Diana is relaying, that everyone around her, at least in the royal family, knew the relationship wasn’t going to last, that they’d have a couple of kids and then live separate lives. Except nobody actually checked this with Diana first and just expected her to pick up the hints. Charles and Camilla shouldn’t have treated her that way.

Charles stood in St Paul’s cathedral and made vows he never had any genuine intention of keeping.

Marriage is a holy sacrament, he’s reportedly a religious man but he’s also the head of the Church of England. It’s a sacrament and a vow and promise to god, as well as to his wife. The fact he made those vows having had that conversation with Philip, and conducting himself in the way he was - shows a real hypocrisy and a real lack of character. He lied on national TV to Diana and the entire British public.

 

[Soncna]

At the time of the wedding, Camilla was 34, Diana was 20 years old.You cannot compare the two at the time of the wedding. Diana was an innocent, Camilla was experienced woman and she should know better.
I am not surprised Diana was later emotionally unstable and become manipulative. She had to survive. Meantime Camilla is now almost a saint. It’ s funny on one side but extremely sad on another how the history can turn.”Quite the opposite” Elizabeth Bennet would say…

 

[cee-bee]

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At the time of the wedding, Camilla was 34, Diana was 20 years old.You cannot compare the two at the time of the wedding. Diana was an innocent, Camilla was experienced woman and she should know better.
I am not surprised Diana was later emotionally unstable and become manipulative. She had to survive. Meantime Camilla is now almost a saint. It’ s funny on one side but extremely sad on another how the history can turn.”Quite the opposite” Elizabeth Bennet would say…

Yep. She’d actually only just turned 20. The wedding was on 29th July, she’d turned 20 on the 1st of that month.

Looking back, that feels insanely young to take all that on. I was still a kid at 20, hadn’t even finished Uni. Was that the norm to be married in the 80s at that young?!

 

[Multi-21]

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Yep. She’d actually only just turned 20. The wedding was on 29th July, she’d turned 20 on the 1st of that month.

Looking back, that feels insanely young to take all that on. I was still a kid at 20, hadn’t even finished Uni. Was that the norm to be married in the 80s at that young?!

Yeah I can’t see a 30 something Prince dating a 19 year old a handful of times and then proposing these days.
It’s easy to forget how young she was

 

[jkroche95]

Maybe Camilla was desperate for love and affection too. Her husband had been cheating on her for years and even went on to marry his long term mistress.
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Yep. She’d actually only just turned 20. The wedding was on 29th July, she’d turned 20 on the 1st of that month.

Looking back, that feels insanely young to take all that on. I was still a kid at 20, hadn’t even finished Uni. Was that the norm to be married in the 80s at that young?!

It was the norm for the Spencer’s. Her grandparents, parents and sister all married with massage age gaps.

 

[stardust21]

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Yep. She’d actually only just turned 20. The wedding was on 29th July, she’d turned 20 on the 1st of that month.

Looking back, that feels insanely young to take all that on. I was still a kid at 20, hadn’t even finished Uni. Was that the norm to be married in the 80s at that young?!

Definitely different times. It was normal to be married that young in the 80’s. Blows my mind now because I’m early 30’s and my friends are only starting to get married now but it was standard to be getting married and having children in your early 20’s then.

Can you imagine if William had done that though

edit to add in this graph:

 

[CuriousCat92]

New thread started as it’s at 50

The Royal Family #41

New thread as the last thread had reached 50 pages. --- Much discussion on Charles, Diana and Camilla. I wonder, if in spite of all the PR work, Charles will ever really escape from his marriage to Diana. My feeling is she is always there as a memory to those of us who lived through those years...

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