In all honesty I’m surprised it’s not William that came out of the divorce as the more messed up brother. Saying that, I think he was old enough to see both sides and appreciate that neither of his parents were saints or the devil. Despite only being a couple of years younger, at that age the maturity differences can be vast and I think Harry just wasn’t old enough to see his mother as anything other than his amazing angelic figure that waltzed around his life offering all the fun stuff whilst his Dad was the more serious one who provided the more “boring” activities etc. I mean, most 12 year olds would prefer the parent who is lax with discipline, sneaks you out to McDonald’s and openly encourages rule breaking compared to the serious parent who is always in meetings and takes you away to a old fusty castle in the country
The Royal Family #40
- Thread starter CuriousCat92
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yeh I’ve heard that story about William too. Now, we’d call that abuse and parentification. Harry himself in his book refers to her as an absent parent.
she was pretty much a kid herself in difficult circumstances when she became a mother. I don’t think she ever has the emotional tools to be a good mother to be honest. It’s definitely contributed to the continued dysfunction in that family.
I can FULLY imagine Carole saying that to Kate lol. The ideal royal woman IS Kate. Demure, chaste, no big opinions, no real outside interests or pursuits. Decorative.
it drives me crazy when people call her a huge asset to William, saying he “chose well” (because Kate is obviously passive and incapable of choice herself). She’s loved by people precisely because she fits into old school, misogynistic, patriarchal ideals. I don’t dislike her, but I hate how she’s held up as a standard for women to aspire to and as an ideal. A representative for the U.K. - when nothing about her embodies modern, democratic, feminist ideals.
Kate’s whole identity is based on her relationship to William and as a mother. She’s known for being his girlfriend then wife. She’s celebrated in her role as his wife. She’s applauded for being a mother. She’s never pursued a career. She’s never stuck her head above the parapet for anything.
no one knows much about her education or pursuits or personality beyond that. Or cares either.
that’s what I dislike so much about the monarchy. It demands women, in particular, to be voiceless, sexless and submissive.
the most controversial thing I think Kate has ever done in her life, is go to that Sarah Everard vigil in Clapham that was essentially banned, to leave flowers.
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I think William probably is very messed up. He just doesn’t show it publicly, or it’s not as obvious.
I had a pretty immature, narcissist mother who emotionally dumped on me at a young age. Outwardly, I seemed like a well adjusted, well behaved, composed, thoughtful kid. But kids aren’t supposed to be like that, like mini adults. In reality I was way too serious for my age, found it difficult to let go and live in the moment and was very stressed and upset about adult situations I had no control over.
ive gone to therapy to tackle a lot of the emotional pain and maladaptive coping mechanisms that come from being raised by a parent like that. I strongly suspect William has not.
maybe this is controversial, but I suspect William (like myself) found it difficult to let his guard down and emotionally connect with people. He started dating Kate and she kinda hung around, never complaining, despite the on-off nature of the relationship. She moulded her life to him and as such, became the “safe” option for him to marry. Because his choice of wife has never been a fully personal choice. It’s a political choice too, a matter of state. I’m sure he loves her - but when they were first engaged I thought their interview was uncomfortable and weird.
when Harry mentioned in his book he had no idea William was going to propose, and mentioned how drunk he got the night before… I got the sense this was a man who didn’t want to marry Kate but likely knew she was the best fit for him given his circumstances.
I reckon he’ll have a mistress, at some point. Someone who he connects with on a much deeper emotional level. She’ll be hidden away and the public may not ever find out. Kate will turn a blind eye because, well, what choice does she have? Divorce would mean losing her HRH status, custody of her children and a battle against the BP pr machine.
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I always got the sense the Harry/Meghan thread was very pro monarchy though?
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I too, collapse on the floor at minor inconveniences and when nobody has asked me if I’m ok… let’s not judge. She was only a grown woman in her 30s now.
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I dabble in the Harry and Meghan thread but it's a little too surrogate/fake kids for me (each to their own, no judgement here) and tend to find this is often a great place to discuss them, the current royals, and the monarchy as a whole. Every now and then someone pops up with a strange conspiracy relating to one of them but on the whole it's a pretty considered thread with neither a pro or anti monarchy angle...weirdly, as it has the potential to be so political etc, it's one of my favourite tattle threads (and that's saying something considering I'm only normally here for the TV, books and Christmas chat 
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)It’s silly but I wonder if Diana came back to life, would she live up to Harry’s expectations? As you said he’s painted her with such high standards
I got the sense he does that because he wants to benefit from a lot of the goodwill Diana had. I get the sense he sees William as his fathers son, whereas he is his mothers son.
in the book he acknowledges she wasn’t a perfect mother, but feels guilty at admitting that. Hard for anyone to do tbf, let alone when that parent died under awful circumstances.
i can fully agree with Harry on one thing though: Camilla is a nasty piece of work. For reasons unbenownst to me, Charles seems to be pretty under her thumb. And consistently throughout history and in Harry’s account, she comes across as pretty callous and self centred.
I can’t believe she turned up to Charles wedding. I mean, imagine rocking up to the wedding of your ex who you jilted to marry some guy who wasn’t into you. When said guy starts fooling around, you head back to your ex. Except he’s moved on and marrying someone else.
so instead of bowing out gracefully and admitting you made a mistake, you send him gifts and turn up triumphantly at his wedding, with your son by another man. Like girl, c’mon. That is pure desperation mixed with utter callousness.
so you successfully wedge yourself in between your ex and his new wife. After a few years, when you’ve resumed shagging, new wife confronts you and says she knows what’s going on. Instead of retaining some dignity and saying “yeh Diana, yeh you make some fair points. Sorry about all this”, the cheeky mare has the audacity to tell Diana to be content with her sons. What, like she was content with her kids with her hubby?!
years later, when the new wife has died and you’ve married the guy who was second choice - his adult son is living with him. The poor guy who lost his mum, partially because of your actions and involvement. And instead of stepping in to try and offer support, make sure he knows he’s wanted and loved… you turn his bedroom into your closet as soon as he moves out. Without telling him. Way to embody those blended family values.
I can’t believe the royal family could stomach sitting through that coronation. Camilla embodies the exact opposite of Christian values. I’d have kicked off if I’d been in Harry or Williams position.
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Harry's whole identity is tied to Diana in a way that William's isn't.
I always remember the mothers day just after the Oprah interview when KP released the photos of the cards the kids write to Diana...it was so out of character/out of the blue for them in that it's the only time I can think of that William has used his mothers death as a bit of a PR piece. I did wonder at the time if it was out of sheer frustration after the interview and how Harry seemed to be positioning himself as his mother's only saviour and son, if it was done out of annoyance on William's part to say "I was her son too"...the fact that they've never done anything remotely similar again makes me wonder if it was decided in the heat of the moment and he regrets making them public now.
I always remember the mothers day just after the Oprah interview when KP released the photos of the cards the kids write to Diana...it was so out of character/out of the blue for them in that it's the only time I can think of that William has used his mothers death as a bit of a PR piece. I did wonder at the time if it was out of sheer frustration after the interview and how Harry seemed to be positioning himself as his mother's only saviour and son, if it was done out of annoyance on William's part to say "I was her son too"...the fact that they've never done anything remotely similar again makes me wonder if it was decided in the heat of the moment and he regrets making them public now.
Curly Top
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This is a very interesting point of view. The PR for Camilla has been excellent as she seems to be well regarded by most now. I always thought it was the die-hard Diana fans who criticised her.
I believed Camilla went back to Charles because her husband was shagging all her mates. Charles was so high status it was a kind of "duck you" to her husband. She never seems to want to be in the limelight and appears very nervous in public.
However, your examples are persuasive. Do you have any more? It seems anything negative about Camilla has been largely ignored.
Harry, again, in his book mentions how Camilla and Charles basically hired a spin doctor early on to rehabilitate Camilla’s image. He’s not a wholly unbiased narrator obviously and his word can’t be taken as gospel: but he does have some credible insight. And his account corroborates other sources:
https://amp.12ft.io/https://www.the...e-was-collateral-damage-in-camillas-pr-ascent
I actually think The Crown has an interesting take on their early relationship and is (purposefully) a bit ambiguous about Camilla’s motives.
I remember thinking it was pretty shocking Charles ever married Camilla, all things considered. It felt like a bit of a “duck you” to his family, the British public and pretty callous towards his dead wife and teenage sons. I was about 15 when they got married and a big fan of the daily mail’s “sidebar of shame”.
I began to notice, that the comments were gradually becoming more and more positive about Camilla. It felt so off to me. I remember thinking back then she’d definitely hired someone behind the scenes. And right enough, it’s all been confirmed. Mark Bolland had established enough good will for Camilla that by the time he left their employ in 2003, he’d paved the way for her to marry Charles.
when Camilla/Charles first hired him in 1999, Diana had been dead less than two years at this point. Unbelievable really.
two Teenage boys have lost their mother under awful circumstances. The priority - a year and a few months after her death - should have been them. If Camilla loved Charles, she would’ve understood that. She’s a mother herself.
but clearly they had other priorities as both were shipped off to boarding school while Camilla set off to be presented to New York society with Mark Bolland at the helm. Disgusting really.
I don’t like Harry, but I’m glad he’s written this book and highlighted how crappy some of these people are.
I really can’t abide when entitled rich people try to fool and manipulate the general public.
Chinese_whispers
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She called William her “rock” which is an awful lot of pressure for a child. I think you’re right, Harry had her as “sparkly, fun mum” who probably indulged a lot of his behaviour because she thought it was funny. They were both so young when she went. He hasn’t moved on to see her as a well rounded human, which William never had the option not to see.
Eirawen
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From what I remember Camilla was the wicked witch of the west for years during Diana's lifetime but gradually she has become accepted, liked and respected. So was she really a witch at all? Or was it the Diana worshippers who painted her as one? Charles was just as bad in the fact he quickly moved onwards with his second wife despite his 2 sons grieving over their mother. Was he still seeing Camilla when he was married to Diana ? So many questions?
If Diana was meant to be a convenience to produce heirs she certainly didn't seem to know it or even suspect it until the engagement interview when the couple were asked if they were in love and she immediately answered "of course" and Charles muttered " whatever in love means" her face just dropped to the floor at that moment. I never liked her much but if she was used just as a pretty and healthy royal breeder it was pretty callous of Charles and the Royals let alone his old flame (who is more his type anyway I think).What makes it worse was that Diana was so young and a very young 19 year old, more like a 16 year old and innocent.
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I thought it was Paul Burrell that she referred to as her "rock". I remember when she died there were rumours that the press had to rush to withdraw the Sunday papers as there were some sensational articles in them about William falling out with her regarding her dalliance with Al Fayed, I wonder if any of those earlier editions were seen by the public and has anyone still got a copy as the Sunday papers used to come out on a Saturday night in London. Of course a few hours later she had passed away and then the mourning had begun and her ascent to Sainthood had begun.
If Diana was meant to be a convenience to produce heirs she certainly didn't seem to know it or even suspect it until the engagement interview when the couple were asked if they were in love and she immediately answered "of course" and Charles muttered " whatever in love means" her face just dropped to the floor at that moment. I never liked her much but if she was used just as a pretty and healthy royal breeder it was pretty callous of Charles and the Royals let alone his old flame (who is more his type anyway I think).What makes it worse was that Diana was so young and a very young 19 year old, more like a 16 year old and innocent.
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I thought it was Paul Burrell that she referred to as her "rock". I remember when she died there were rumours that the press had to rush to withdraw the Sunday papers as there were some sensational articles in them about William falling out with her regarding her dalliance with Al Fayed, I wonder if any of those earlier editions were seen by the public and has anyone still got a copy as the Sunday papers used to come out on a Saturday night in London. Of course a few hours later she had passed away and then the mourning had begun and her ascent to Sainthood had begun.
to be honest, all the Diana stuff aside… Camilla (and to an extent, Charles) has consistently shown herself to be pretty crappy.
if you give her the total benefit of the doubt - she loved Charles, but he was posted abroad, she married someone else and that turned out to be a huge mistake..
well… she still showed up to that wedding. She still sent him those cuff links with intertwined C’s. She was still accepting gifts of jewellery from a newly married man. But… let’s assume that things ended there and she wasn’t in constant, regular contact.
but by 1989, they were sleeping together. Not only was Camilla cheating on her own husband and father of her children. But she was cheating with a married man. But… let’s put that aside. So far Camilla has consistently been dishonest. But we can’t know the inner details.
Camilla divorces her husband in 1995, Charles and Diana divorce a year later. A clean slate.
A year after Diana’s death, Camila and Charles go public with their relationship. In the middle of still grieving their mother, William and Harry are introduced to Camilla. She doesn’t seem to have a problem with this. I believe this is the incident that Harry refers to in his book, when she began leaking to the press and lying about having William’s approval. Highly insensitive and deeply hurtful, not to mention selfish.
in January 1999, Camilla has hired a snazzy PR guru (Mark Bolland) to rehabilitate her image. I’d have thought a priority would have been building a relationship with Harry and William. But apparently not. The queen refused to meet with Camilla until 2000, because she didn’t approve of her. Looks like the public PR campaign worked, and the Queen had to eventually relent. It took 30 years from Charles first dating Camilla for the Queen to accept her as his partner. Imagine that.
in 2003, Camilla and Charles moved in together into Clarence House. Harry I believe, was living with his father on/off around this time. This is when mark Bolland ends his professional relationship with C&C. They’ve moved in, she’s publicly his partner, mission accomplished.
in 2005, Harry and William (according to Harry) beg their father not to marry Camilla. He doesn’t respond, but Camilla apparently does. I’m all for people living their lives as they wish - but why isn’t a public relationship enough for this woman? Considering their relationship was the source of so much torment to their dead mother, you’d think someone with a grasp on morality would draw The line at cohabitation. But apparently not. So they get married in 2005.
Harry moves out of Clarence House aged 28, so circa 2012. You’d imagine that this woman, who has multiple homes across multiple estates: wouldn’t begrudge a bedroom to her motherless stepson struggling with anxiety. But no, as soon as he moves out she converts his bedroom into a room for herself. The message here is clear IMO: you’re no longer welcome here. Kind and caring Camilla again.
you could ignore the awful way she behaved with Diana and Charles. You could sympathise and assume she loved Charles, just had a funny way of showing it. The lying, the gaslighting and the flagrant disregard for anyone else’s feelings. You could maybe ignore that… if she’d somehow demonstrated she was otherwise, a decent person.
but what has Camilla done that is truly decent and selfless? She hasn’t treated her stepsons particularly well, or involved herself with them. She has charity patronages but… we have reason to believe they were part of her PR campaign. And they were part of her job after marrying Charles.
Diana - and anyone who is a mega fan of Diana - never needed to say a disparaging word about Camilla. Because Camilla’s actions, objectively, speak for themselves. I don’t think Diana ever said anything especially catty or rude about Camilla, all things considered.
nope, I think Camilla is a bit of a witch because of her own actions.
Baby Giraffe
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Yes because obviously it's always 100% the woman's fault................ I get it that you don't like her but none of us know the full story as we weren't there and people are never so 2 dimensional as you're describing
No of course not. I call Charles crappy too lol.
None of us do know the full story… but a lot of the stuff I mentioned is as good as factual (the cheating starting again in 1989 has been confirmed, Harry moving into Nott cott was confirmed etc. it’s fact that they hired Mark Bolland in 1999).
What are your thoughts on Camilla/Charles if you don’t agree with my take?
wishiniwasskinny
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I don’t know the full historical timeline of every moment of Camilla & Charles relationship. Maybe she isn’t pleasant, but I doubt Charles was a mute and uninvolved participant in events. Why shouldn’t be marry again? At the behest of his children? If any divorced couples refused to remarry due to their children’s requests no one would. It’s not uncommon that children of divorced parents don’t (initially) get on with the new partners. Especially if there’s animosity and upset.
Baby Giraffe
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I think that they whole thing is an absolute mess and he never should have been pushed to marry Diana. What came after that stems so much from that point. You've had more than one rant about Camilla on this thread with only a passing comment about Charles which indicates very strongly where you see blame. Lots of people hire PR consultants if they're in the public eye, they won't be the only ones in the RF to do this and it doesn't make anybody a witch. I've personally never met any of them and am not really interested in doing so but a friend of mine worked with Camilla on a literary project and was very complimentary about how hard working and knowledgeable she was on the subject so we can all quote facts but individual ones don't cover the complexity of any body in full.
Boring Monday
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Of course she went to Charles and Diana’s wedding … they were part of the inner circle, and not just through her relationship with Charles. Andrew’s parents were close to the to the Queen Mum and is her god son (I think) and was also a page at The Queen’s coronation. He is also god father to Zara. When Charles and Camilla married, he and his second wife were guests at the wedding. When his second wife passed away, Anne went to the funeral and Camilla the memorial service.
As has been said so many times before, they operate to their own rules and mores, for all their PR likes to tell us otherwise.
As has been said so many times before, they operate to their own rules and mores, for all their PR likes to tell us otherwise.
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