Madeleine McCann #7

[moldwarp]

According to netflix it was the McCann's that alerted the British media for help to find Maddie because the Portuguese police weren't taking it seriously

That's not accurate. I posted about this at length upthread and don't want to repeat verbatim as it'll be circular/boring for other Tattlers, but to summarise my earlier post:

1. The PJ took it VERY seriously. They swarmed the apartment and resort with personnel and by dawn had sealed off all the arterial roads/ports out of Lagos and the wider northern part of the Algarve - a very high standard of agile and responsive policing
2. When the McCanns say the PJ weren't taking it seriously, what they really mean is that they were angry that the PJ were following the internationally accepted standard of detection in the case of missing children - to first closely question and ideally eliminate the direct family and family acquaintences.
3. Less than an hour after Maddie was reported taken, Gerry had called his sister Philomena McCann in UK and told her to contact Sky News and tell them that the shutters of Maddie's room had been smashed and Maddie kidnapped. As it soon transpired, the shutters were not in any way damaged and there was no way Gerry or Kate could have known, at that point, that Maddie had been 'kidnapped' as opposed to, say, 'wandered off'. Why immediately start knowingly promulgating false information? Wouldn't that, in fact, hinder the search for Maddie? And on that subject...
4...why would the UK media be of any use at this early stage? As I have pointed out, the UK is almost 1,500 air km away from Portugal. If media attention was required to help find Maddie, wouldn't you start with the Portuguese media? Or were the McCanns less concerned with the whereabouts of the child and more concerned with managing their own reputation back home?
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I don't see this level of suspicion and hatred for parents of other children who have gone missing or been killed or abused?

That isn't because there isn't any suspicion or hatred - it's because 99 times out of a hundred there has been a proper investigation, guilt or imnocence has been proven, punishment has been meted out - justice, as far as is possible, has been done.

Exactly. And tbf I'm also HIGHLY suspicious of JonBenet's parents, and Casey Anthony. I don't hate them though, cos hatred uses up a lot of spiritual energy and I don't waste that much spiritual energy on people I don't know. (In fact, thinking about it, I don't even waste that much spiritual energy on people I do know. If someone in my life is no good I just leave 'em tf alone)

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Although I do think she was abducted. I think K&G should have been made take a lie detector test. It did they?.

Lie detectors have been entirely discredited as a technique so I don’t think there’s any point in anybody at all taking one tbh.

I think there is a lot of judgment towards the McCanns because their actions were so entirely selfish and it was so preventable. It’s not a case of “I nipped to the bathroom and my child vanished” where 99% of parents have done the same and you have the “for the grace of god” or like Ben Needham where he was with a grandparent and vanished from the garden, leaving your child in an unlocked hotel room alone is absolutely horrendous.

I also think the lack of legal consequences for their clear and obvious neglect has added to it. Most parents who left their kids of this age alone and something like this happened would be charged and face legal consequences for their neglect.

The McCanns haven’t. And whether or not you believe they sedated her or the twins not or whether you believe they killed her, it is an indisputable fact their actions in leaving her and the twins alone in an unlocked apartment were a massive contributing factor to her disappearance - and almost certain death (in most legal systems she would be able to be declared dead after being missing for so long and I think anybody rational should agree that at this stage she’s almost certainly dead. Not 100% of course, but by far the most likely scenario). For no reason other than their own selfishness and wanting a meal out, yet they’ve faced no legal consequences for that and were allowed to continue their family life.

Yet the single mum in a mental health crisis who left her children at home to go to Sainsbury’s, there was a fire and they died, was charged. So there is precedent for legal action against the parents in this situation, even when they have far more compelling mitigating circumstances than “We wanted Tapas”.

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

That's not accurate. I posted about this at length upthread and don't want to repeat verbatim as it'll be circular/boring for other Tattlers, but to summarise my earlier post:

1. The PJ took it VERY seriously. They swarmed the apartment and resort with personnel and by dawn had sealed off all the arterial roads/ports out of Lagos and the wider northern part of the Algarve - a very high standard of agile and responsive policing
2. When the McCanns say the PJ weren't taking it seriously, what they really mean is that they were angry that the PJ were following the internationally accepted standard of detection in the case of missing children - to first closely question and ideally eliminate the direct family and family acquaintences.
3. Less than an hour after Maddie was reported taken, Gerry had called his sister Philomena McCann in UK and told her to contact Sky News and tell them that the shutters of Maddie's room had been smashed and Maddie kidnapped. As it soon transpired, the shutters were not in any way damaged and there was no way Gerry or Kate could have known, at that point, that Maddie had been 'kidnapped' as opposed to, say, 'wandered off'. Why immediately start knowingly promulgating false information? Wouldn't that, in fact, hinder the search for Maddie? And on that subject...
4...why would the UK media be of any use at this early stage? As I have pointed out, the UK is almost 1,500 air km away from Portugal. If media attention was required to help find Maddie, wouldn't you start with the Portuguese media? Or were the McCanns less concerned with the whereabouts of the child and more concerned with managing their own reputation back home?
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Exactly. And tbf I'm also HIGHLY suspicious of JonBenet's parents, and Casey Anthony. I don't hate them though, cos hatred uses up a lot of spiritual energy and I don't waste that much spiritual energy on people I don't know. (In fact, thinking about it, I don't even waste that much spiritual energy on people I do know. If someone in my life is no good I just leave 'em tf alone)

Exactly. And tbf I'm also HIGHLY suspicious of JonBenet's parents, and Casey Anthony. I don't hate them though, cos hatred uses up a lot of spiritual energy

I don't know Casey Anthony, but I agree with you that there is a warrenful of rabbits shooting off in all directions when it comes to poor little JonBenet

 

[Telly Fanatic]

Everyone of the tapas group should have got done with child neglect. Bet the other parents were relieved they weren't in the end apartment.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Everyone of the tapas group should have got done with child neglect. Bet the other parents were relieved they weren't in the end apartment.

Agreed. And instead the McCann’s got far more investigation than most missing children get and millions of pounds of public money donated, plus for a long time anyone who said a negative word was told off - eg over on the mums site they regularly deleted threads because the McCanns were known to be so litigious of anyone who even hinted they were indirectly responsible for it - despite that being unquestionable - and the media being far kinder to them than they would be to 99% of parents in a similar situation.

All of those things combined explain to me why there is resentment towards them in particular. They did something unthinkable that led to horrific consequences for their child and yet got off Scot free, made money from it (it’s been confirmed they made some mortgage payments from the find Madeleine fund for example) and I cannot find any examples of them giving any of the millions they’ve raised for the fund to funds for other missing children, even at this stage. You would assume they would be willing to help other families with the large amount of money they are sitting on in the fund with nowhere to spend it if there are no leads, especially with the amount of money they’ve also had from Scotland Yard spent on it. It’s a massively unequal situation for numerous reasons.

ETA: mortgage payment source from a reputable newspaper before I’m told it’s my opinion/from a dodgy blog https://12ft.io/https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/30/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

 

[Nelly's mum]

I absolutely agree the McCanns should have faced charges for neglect, also the Tapas7, they all neglected their children. But there is a world of difference between neglect - leaving three small children alone in an unlocked apartment - and concealing a death.

@CabalofBalornaise; I think mum of 2x sets of twins in MH crisis is an interesting (and obviously tragic) comparison for MM, class was definitely was a factor in how the cases unfolded and the outcomes.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

I absolutely agree the McCanns should have faced charges for neglect, also the Tapas7, they all neglected their children. But there is a world of difference between neglect - leaving three small children alone in an unlocked apartment - and concealing a death.

@CabalofBalornaise; I think mum of 2x sets of twins in MH crisis is an interesting (and obviously tragic) comparison for MM, class was definitely was a factor in how the cases unfolded and the outcomes.

It absolutely was, and people don’t like double standards like that.

When you can see the difference in the way they and Madeline were treated vs the way Ben Needham’s mum was treated both by the police in the respective countries initially (the Needhams were instantly considered suspects whereas the McCanns weren’t) and the media despite Ben having been doing something entirely normal, having been left with his grandparents in and out of a house and garden vs the sheer neglect of the McCanns, that’s going to build resentment.

Combine that with the inequality of them facing no charges and seemingly no SS involvement at all when other parents who have left their young children and accidents have happened have been charged or at the very least had heavy SS involvement, it’s not surprising people question exactly what is so special about the McCann’s that mean they don’t face the consequences others in their position would have - and why they feel so special and like they should be protected from all consequences that they complain they were suspects.

To be clear, I do not think they killed her or concealed her death, but they absolutely should have been suspects from day one based on the statistics around child deaths - most are at the hands of someone known to them - they were the last people to see her alive and the fact they clearly lied repeatedly to the Portuguese police.

 

[Nelly's mum]

I would imagine for any disappearance or murder, especially for a young child, the family and close friends are the initial suspects - 9/10 they are involved - but obviously not always, so I understand why this would happen. Obviously GMc took exception to being considered a suspect which, combined with his bullish personality, meant the situation descended into non co-operation with the police investigation and him taking legal action.
Interesting to hear you don't think the McCanns were initially considered as suspects; I think they absolutely were, maybe the police didn't say this outright but I think there was an assumption, as there usually is in cases involving children, from the outset that the parents were involved.

Do we know for certain SS weren't involved with the McCanns? I would imagine this is confidential information and would not be released to the press.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

I would imagine for any disappearance or murder, especially for a young child, the family and close friends are the initial suspects - 9/10 they are involved - but obviously not always, so I understand why this would happen. Obviously GMc took exception to being considered a suspect which, combined with his bullish personality, meant the situation descended into non co-operation with the police investigation and him taking legal action.
Interesting to hear you don't think the McCanns were initially considered as suspects; I think they absolutely were, maybe the police didn't say this outright but I think there was an assumption, as there usually is in cases involving children, from the outset that the parents were involved.

Do we know for certain SS weren't involved with the McCanns? I would imagine this is confidential information and would not be released to the press.

I don’t think they were considered as suspects from the start in the same way as the Needhams, where the sole focus on the family initially has been highlighted as having hindered the investigation. By contrast, the PJ clearly took the abduction theory very seriously from the start even if they were also aware of the parental possibility.

The later naming as official is also perfectly logical to me, they had no forensic trace of an abductor (and still to this day have no forensic trace of one as far as I’m aware) and parents with changing and contrasting stories - it would have been hugely neglectful of the PJ to not consider them serious suspects given that - an emotional reaction of immediate annoyance I could forgive from the McCanns but it was sustained and does come across as “How dare they consider us suspects?” when there are very good reasons they were considered suspects and indeed very good reasons that they still are by some people.

We don’t know for certain on SS, but given his outrage at being considered (rightly so) a suspect and the many complaints about that I would assume Gerry would have equally complained about SS involvement. And we certainly know they were allowed to keep the other two children all along, which I can’t imagine 99% of families in the same situation would be.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I only know of one instance where either of them has done the classic thing of speculating on where their missing child could be, and that's Kate, in her book, where she has a paragraph soon after the 'abduction' in which she imagines, and again this is a very close paraphrase, "Maddie's perfect little genitals being ripped apart". Which is about seven shades of disturbing to me.

That is without doubt one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever read.

Yes, you may worry that your child is living a life of abuse, or that they may have been taken by a pe*dophile, but you wouldn’t commit those thoughts to print in that way.
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Everyone of the tapas group should have got done with child neglect. Bet the other parents were relieved they weren't in the end apartment.

Absolutely. At the very, very least they were complicit in leaving multiple children in an unsafe environment.

I’ve wondered if the press attention was a shield - they thought Maddie’s face across the news would somehow bring empathy and the authorities would face backlash if they ‘blamed’ the poor grieving parents

 

[griftalo]

This

I don’t think they were considered as suspects from the start in the same way as the Needhams, where the sole focus on the family initially has been highlighted as having hindered the investigation. By contrast, the PJ clearly took the abduction theory very seriously from the start even if they were also aware of the parental possibility.

The later naming as official is also perfectly logical to me, they had no forensic trace of an abductor (and still to this day have no forensic trace of one as far as I’m aware) and parents with changing and contrasting stories - it would have been hugely neglectful of the PJ to not consider them serious suspects given that - an emotional reaction of immediate annoyance I could forgive from the McCanns but it was sustained and does come across as “How dare they consider us suspects?” when there are very good reasons they were considered suspects and indeed very good reasons that they still are by some people.

We don’t know for certain on SS, but given his outrage at being considered (rightly so) a suspect and the many complaints about that I would assume Gerry would have equally complained about SS involvement. And we certainly know they were allowed to keep the other two children all along, which I can’t imagine 99% of families in the same situation would be.

re the naming of the parents as “arguidos” it was in their interest to be made as such.

Personally, I do not think that this should’ve been allowed to happen.

 

[Bobbiewilson]

I have always believed that Madeleine died in the apartment in a tragic accident while her parents were dining with their friends.
This is based on MM being known to be a restless sleeper, and the dogs alerting behind the sofa.
I believe she was woken on one of Gerry’s visits as he visited the toilet, then she could hear him talking outside to JT and stood on the back of the sofa to try and see him out of the window.

I don’t believe any of the children were given anything to help them sleep. The twins slept through a lot, but I remember we had a small house fire in the night, the smoke alarms were going off, me and my husband were running round shouting, and my then 2Yo slept through the lot!

I think on one of the visits MM was found, and I think GM involved DP. Between them I think they removed evidence and MM. I don’t believe KM was involved in this but I do think she knows MM has died.
just my opinion don’t come for me!

 

[Daddy Cool]

I wonder if we’ll ever truly find out what happened. How viable is the theory that she could have just wandered off? Could she have got trapped somewhere or fallen down a well/hole?

I really struggle to believe the abduction theory and that there have been 0 leads or sightings around when she was taken or in the immediate aftermath.

Regarding her dying in the apartment I do think this is the most plausible. But my main reasoning for not thinking this is 1. Had they involved the other couples to help cover this up someone would have slipped up with their story. 2. I think Kate wouldn’t have been able to hold it together, but maybe I’m extending her too much empathy and 3. Why couldn’t they have reported a terrible accident? Was the risk of being accused of neglect/becoming suspects not a huge gamble as well?

 

[The Yoko Ono of GY]

I wonder if we’ll ever truly find out what happened. How viable is the theory that she could have just wandered off? Could she have got trapped somewhere or fallen down a well/hole?

I really struggle to believe the abduction theory and that there have been 0 leads or sightings around when she was taken or in the immediate aftermath.

Regarding her dying in the apartment I do think this is the most plausible. But my main reasoning for not thinking this is 1. Had they involved the other couples to help cover this up someone would have slipped up with their story. 2. I think Kate wouldn’t have been able to hold it together, but maybe I’m extending her too much empathy and 3. Why couldn’t they have reported a terrible accident? Was the risk of being accused of neglect/becoming suspects not a huge gamble as well?

There's a theory, she was abused (see the rumours around David Payne and the one conversation between Payne and Gerry this Tapas 7 woman reported to the Police.), and finding her dead Body and examining her, the police would have found out.

 

[moldwarp]

I think on one of the visits MM was found, and I think GM involved DP. Between them I think they removed evidence and MM. I don’t believe KM was involved in this but I do think she knows MM has died.
just my opinion don’t come for me!

I don't believe any of the other Tapas 7 were involved, purely on the basis that it's too many people to keep such a dreadful secret. There are commentators whom I respect, who believe they were involved, including a retired UK police chief who self-published a book about it (can't recall his name but he was mentioned by another Tattler upthread). He claims he has evidence of meetings that Tapas 7 held before the McCanns returned to Portugal the first time, after which the Tapas 7's stories changed, and became more noticeably uniform, which obviously made the PJ suspicious. I personally would want to see more primary circumstantial evidence of their being involved, and I don't think my theory of what happened needs them to be involved, other than that I do think DP lied about seeing the three McCann children 'like angels all dressed in white' on the afternoon before Maddie was reported 'taken'. I think he did that as a favour to Gerry.

I do absolutely believe DP is a wrong 'un though, based on the police report made by another friend of the McCanns, who after seeing their old friends on the news, told their local police about a dinner they'd had with the McCanns and DP in which DP made a sexual joke about Maddie whilst making a lewd gesture on his own body. The woman who reported it was a respected professional and had no reason to lie, in fact no reason at all to want to involve herself apart from concern about Maddie.

@Daddy Cool yes I do absolutely believe we will find out the truth one day. One of the twins has allegedly grown up to be, sadly, a very troubled individual. I won't post more as I said above, the twins did not ask for any of this. But I believe the truth or the partial truth will eventually come from that individual.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

I wonder if we’ll ever truly find out what happened. How viable is the theory that she could have just wandered off? Could she have got trapped somewhere or fallen down a well/hole?

I really struggle to believe the abduction theory and that there have been 0 leads or sightings around when she was taken or in the immediate aftermath.

Regarding her dying in the apartment I do think this is the most plausible. But my main reasoning for not thinking this is 1. Had they involved the other couples to help cover this up someone would have slipped up with their story. 2. I think Kate wouldn’t have been able to hold it together, but maybe I’m extending her too much empathy and 3. Why couldn’t they have reported a terrible accident? Was the risk of being accused of neglect/becoming suspects not a huge gamble as well?

I’m really interested to see what, if anything, eventually comes of the Germans apparently being sure CB did it. It seems like it’s been an awful lot of time with no movement since they announced they knew he was involved and knew she was dead. Very cruel of them to announce that and then not do anything for so long really, imagine being the family (who per reports only found out when the Germans announced it) left in limbo. If they have all the evidence, I can’t see why he’s not been charged by now.

Even if you think the parents did it and thus know for sure he didn’t, Madeline has grandparents and siblings that they’ve left in limbo, waiting to see if anything comes of it or if the Germans just never mention it again.

 

[BeatsWorkin]

I’m really interested to see what, if anything, eventually comes of the Germans apparently being sure CB did it. It seems like it’s been an awful lot of time with no movement since they announced they knew he was involved and knew she was dead. Very cruel of them to announce that and then not do anything for so long really, imagine being the family (who per reports only found out when the Germans announced it) left in limbo. If they have all the evidence, I can’t see why he’s not been charged by now.

Even if you think the parents did it and thus know for sure he didn’t, Madeline has grandparents and siblings that they’ve left in limbo, waiting to see if anything comes of it or if the Germans just never mention it again.

Wasn't he linked to a missing German girl? That all went quiet. I wondered if they'd found a photo or an item of clothing of madeleine, but surely that would be enough to charge him? He was clearly in the area on 3rd May, a child sex offender and I do think the German police have something else on him as well.

 

[Telly Fanatic]

I don't believe she wandered off because she was a bright nearly 4 year old and I think she would have went to the noise chit /chatter possibly music of the tapas bar. She's not going to walk down a scary dark road and continue walking till she falls down a drain.

 

[Nelly's mum]

I don't believe she wandered off because she was a bright nearly 4 year old and I think she would have went to the noise chit /chatter possibly music of the tapas bar. She's not going to walk down a scary dark road and continue walking till she falls down a drain.

I can imagine myself as a bright little girl at 3yo, nearly 4yo, going out to find my parents.
MM had been there for several days, she had probably seen the tapas bar and had an idea where it was, KMc had told her the previous day that she and GMc were out for a meal the previous evening when MM woke up.
So I feel it completely possible she left the apartment to find her parents and was abducted by some pweirdo.
I agree with you that a small child would be unlikely to wander off into the dark or head to the countryside, she would head for lights, music and other people.

 

[Telly Fanatic]

I can imagine myself as a bright little girl at 3yo, nearly 4yo, going out to find my parents.
MM had been there for several days, she had probably seen the tapas bar and had an idea where it was, KMc had told her the previous day that she and GMc were out for a meal the previous evening when MM woke up.
So I feel it completely possible she left the apartment to find her parents and was abducted by some pweirdo.
I agree with you that a small child would be unlikely to wander off into the dark or head to the countryside, she would head for lights, music and other people.

I think the thought of her wandering off and getting abducted on the St is worse on kate than the thought of her getting taken from her bed. Kate was always adamant she wouldn't have left the apartment to look for them.