Amanda Palmer

[whathastheworldcometo]

Hahaha. Yes, I am quite proud of it.

Also see: the joy of being proved right, and the pain of being proved right. For once, I'd like to be wrong about dudes doing standard issue gross dude things as soon as life, fame and opportunity allows it. Haven't yet been, though.

What do you think of NG and the accusations made against him?

I don't know much of him, I do not read fantasy, but always thought that he seemed genuine and very creative as well as obscenely good with words.

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

What do you think of NG and the accusations made against him?

I don't know much of him, I do not read fantasy, but always thought that he seemed genuine and very creative as well as obscenely good with words.

I mean, one doesn't preclude the other. You can be a talented fucker, and a horrific person. I think I've written here before on this precise subject. A lot of male artists are quite simply, bleeping terrible people. You wouldn't want to know them. It's the arse-kissing and the ability to get away with tit and constantly be excused from tit because talent. that turns them into horrors. Doesn't take away from the artefacts they created, a good book is still a good book etc.

I think Gaiman is clearly a sex obsessed, sad old bastard of a human being with a carefully cultivated fanbase that allows him to be so, practically speaking, by producing a succession of very young, quirky women idealistic and enamoured enough to get into the situations described with him and realise too late that they're just meat puppets and he's just another old dude who wants to paw young girls as much for his ego as anything else. I find the entitled sounding behaviour quite believable because this is very often how famous men who don't have to try, treat young starstruck women because to them they are disposable and well, they're easily manipulated idiots to them. Been that way through the modern era. No different than the horrific way rock stars treated teenaged girls as interchangeable meat back in the 70s onwards. Probably way more sanitized than that now, actually. Gaiman's girls aren't 15 thankfully but he does have all the classic hallmarks of the type.

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

I mean, one doesn't preclude the other. You can be a talented fucker, and a horrific person. I think I've written here before on this precise subject. A lot of male artists are quite simply, bleeping terrible people. You wouldn't want to know them. It's the arse-kissing and the ability to get away with tit and constantly be excused from tit because talent. that turns them into horrors. Doesn't take away from the artefacts they created, a good book is still a good book etc.

I think Gaiman is clearly a sex obsessed, sad old bastard of a human being with a carefully cultivated fanbase that allows him to be so, practically speaking, by producing a succession of very young, quirky women idealistic and enamoured enough to get into the situations described with him and realise too late that they're just meat puppets and he's just another old dude who wants to paw young girls as much for his ego as anything else. I find the entitled sounding behaviour quite believable because this is very often how famous men who don't have to try, treat young starstruck women because to them they are disposable and well, they're easily manipulated idiots to them. Been that way through the modern era. No different than the horrific way rock stars treated teenaged girls as interchangeable meat back in the 70s onwards. Probably way more sanitized than that now, actually. Gaiman's girls aren't 15 thankfully but he does have all the classic hallmarks of the type.

Yes.
The comparison to rock stars and groupies is a good one.

I am surprised by the BDSM stuff, "call me Master", the pain he induced. He comes across as so gentle?

 

[skronkywildcat]

It's absolutely textbook and vomit inducing. To think when the allegations first came out I thought Amanda had encouraged the women to embroider what happened it and he couldn't possibly... I feel really embarrassed I doubted those women, even if it was only briefly before I heard the podcast.

 

[Vanelope]

His work always has a nasty sex undercurrent that makes it ‘edgy’. In American gods an ancient goddess consumes a worshiper entirely into ‘herself’ shall we say during intercourse, graphically described, which is just one example. Stardust - which often aimed at YA since the film - also has graphic sex scene. There is an early episode of the sandman - which is purposely disturbing graphic horror - it’s not all lovely Death come to shepherd people to the next life. There is a specific story in Sandman about a muse being kept prisoner and r*ped repeatedly by an author in order to inspire him to write - Calliope. That story doesn’t end well for the author…

*I know the fantasy smut genre is alive and kicking - mainly female written and often unwittingly put on YA shelves by unwary booksellers - it’s not that graphic, but in NG books it always feels distasteful with a nasty aftertaste - maybe because written for men?*

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

It's absolutely textbook and vomit inducing. To think when the allegations first came out I thought Amanda had encouraged the women to embroider what happened it and he couldn't possibly... I feel really embarrassed I doubted those women, even if it was only briefly before I heard the podcast.

Don't feel embarrassed about it, I am sure you are not the only one who felt this way.
---

His work always has a nasty sex undercurrent that makes it ‘edgy’. In American gods an ancient goddess consumes a worshiper entirely into ‘herself’ shall we say during intercourse, graphically described, which is just one example. Stardust - which often aimed at YA since the film - also has graphic sex scene. There is an early episode of the sandman - which is purposely disturbing graphic horror - it’s not all lovely Death come to shepherd people to the next life. There is a specific story in Sandman about a muse being kept prisoner and r*ped repeatedly by an author in order to inspire him to write - Calliope. That story doesn’t end well for the author…

*I know the fantasy smut genre is alive and kicking - mainly female written and often unwittingly put on YA shelves by unwary booksellers - it’s not that graphic, but in NG books it always feels distasteful with a nasty aftertaste - maybe because written for men?*

This is really interesting, you seem to know his work really well.

It is almost as if the author reveals himself in these examples of his work, isn't it? Kind of fascinating (not in a good way, but interesting from a psychological perspective)

 

[Hollaaa]

I always found he wrote his women in quite a fetishy way and couldn't warm to his style at all.
Having said that, I only read Sandman in the 90s, that put me off and I never gave him a second chance.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

As for quirky second wife, the moment Gaiman got with her I thought, haha, you found yourself a 15 years younger Poundland Tori Amos since the original you liked so much wasn't free. He's looked like a bleeping bag lady midlife crisis wanker ever since he's been with her. Clearly has a boner for eccentric artist women anyway.

Great post, and you have the measure of the pair of them. When Tori Amos started her warbling in the 1990s we used to call her a Poundshop Kate Bush. So that would make Amanda Palmer a 50p bargain basket article.

 

[Vanelope]

Absolutely nailed it 3 years ago

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

Great post, and you have the measure of the pair of them. When Tori Amos started her warbling in the 1990s we used to call her a Poundshop Kate Bush. So that would make Amanda Palmer a 50p bargain basket article.

Hahhaaa.

Actually, I am a huge fan of Kate since 86 or so and Tori later (at least until the post=scarlet albums which were erghhhh) and never saw the Amos comparison beyond girl + piano stuff. Palmer though ... yikes. She cannot touch either Bush or Amos in terms of vocal, lyrical or compositional talent. I think Amanda's big talent is simply self-promotion and having a big enough ego not to give two fucks if she's any good or not.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Hahhaaa.

Actually, I am a huge fan of Kate since 86 or so and Tori later (at least until the post=scarlet albums which were erghhhh) and never saw the Amos comparison beyond girl + piano stuff. Palmer though ... yikes. She cannot touch either Bush or Amos in terms of vocal, lyrical or compositional talent. I think Amanda's big talent is simply self-promotion and having a big enough ego not to give two fucks if she's any good or not.

I adore Kate Bush too. I think Amanda is going for the Weimar Republic sort of thing - where vocal & musical talent don't matter as long as you have style and attitude and plucked eyebrows. But as the Isherwood character says to an exasperating Sally Bowles, the American wannabe in Cabaret, "you're about as fatale as an after dinner mint!"

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

I adore Kate Bush too. I think Amanda is going for the Weimar Republic sort of thing - where vocal & musical talent don't matter as long as you have style and attitude and plucked eyebrows. But as the Isherwood character says to an exasperating Sally Bowles, the American wannabe in Cabaret, "you're about as fatale as an after dinner mint!"

Oh, I ❤ Cabaret, Goodbye to Berlin, Babylon Berlin, anything good set in that era. The original Sally Bowles in the novel was eEnglish, based on a real woman called Jean Ross, and boy was she pissed at Isherwood's portrayal of her as an apolitical ditz! Don't think she minded the meagre talent bit, but she was a committed Communist and Sally, well, sally barely notices the SA waltzing by ...

I definitely understand what you mean about her trying to reference Weimar and certainly she does use chutzpah instead of having talent, but god. Aside from a couple of catchier tunes, she's fairly unbearable to listen to tbqh. You need SOMETHING else, given it's not actually the 1920s anymore ...

 

[Vanelope]

She’s built up a cult of personality, the rambling confessionals, the blurring of boundaries, like she used to couch surf at fan houses when touring. She chronically over shares and has cultivated hugely invested patrons who are happy to fund her lifestyle if it meant they had unfettered access to her. I used to get her newsletter and while I never joined her Patreon the amount of pure nonsense she spouted was incredible, pages and pages multiple times a week. It was before they got married and had Ash. Once she had a kid I think she realized she couldn’t be as available to the quite obsessed fans and changed her approach to touring and events etc totally understandable. Also NZ disrupted her entire livelihood, especially when Neil left, whatever they had at that point was demolished.

Getting back with Dresden Dolls seems a good plan for her. She is an accomplished grifter but I think the patreons are at least getting what they pay for - access to all of her inane thoughts.

almost admirable really - I don’t see how it has sustained so long on such little talent

 

[TheStrawberryThief]

I don't mind her more rougher singing and piano style for the dolls. It works really well as they have a more DIY/Punk aesthetic to them. She sings DD songs like she is trying to attack the piano and I like it. I am actually excited to hear the new DD songs if they ever come out.

-----

I am wondering what has happened to cause her and Ash to suddenly have to pack up and move to a new area at such short notice?

 

[TheStrawberryThief]

There is a new episode of ' Master' an account from a women called Claire. She has already spoken to a different podcast.

The thing I don't understand about this account, is that Claire had a boyfriend and was having very intimate conversations with Gaiman, sending and getting pictures and having phone sex, yet seems to maintain that it was a friendship. My boyfriend is not controlling, but he would absolutely hit the roof if he found out I was casually doing that with another person, celebrity or not, whilst claiming it was a friendship. Her boyfriend seems to be aware of some of what was happening as well.

She also talks about being uncomfortable about him from the start, but keeps meeting him even though every time they meet up he touches her inappropriately.

I am not blaming the victim, she obviously feels very distressed about what has happened.

I just can't comprehend how you would get into that situation or how someone would have that much power over you. I think that just means I am lucky that I have not run into someone with that level of charisma.

Getting on my soapbox for a second, this is why we need to talk to young people about consent, how to ask for it, how to give it, but also trusting your instinct and how to say no if someone does not pass a vibe check.

 

[jobackhorsewoman]

There is a new episode of ' Master' an account from a women called Claire. She has already spoken to a different podcast.

The thing I don't understand about this account, is that Claire had a boyfriend and was having very intimate conversations with Gaiman, sending and getting pictures and having phone sex, yet seems to maintain that it was a friendship. My boyfriend is not controlling, but he would absolutely hit the roof if he found out I was casually doing that with another person, celebrity or not, whilst claiming it was a friendship. Her boyfriend seems to be aware of some of what was happening as well.

She also talks about being uncomfortable about him from the start, but keeps meeting him even though every time they meet up he touches her inappropriately.

I am not blaming the victim, she obviously feels very distressed about what has happened.

I just can't comprehend how you would get into that situation or how someone would have that much power over you. I think that just means I am lucky that I have not run into someone with that level of charisma.

Getting on my soapbox for a second, this is why we need to talk to young people about consent, how to ask for it, how to give it, but also trusting your instinct and how to say no if someone does not pass a vibe check.

This reminds me of Baby Reindeer when (spoiler alert) he keeps meeting up with the older guy from the TV industry even when he's getting abused by him.

 

[whathastheworldcometo]

There is a new episode of ' Master' an account from a women called Claire. She has already spoken to a different podcast.

The thing I don't understand about this account, is that Claire had a boyfriend and was having very intimate conversations with Gaiman, sending and getting pictures and having phone sex, yet seems to maintain that it was a friendship. My boyfriend is not controlling, but he would absolutely hit the roof if he found out I was casually doing that with another person, celebrity or not, whilst claiming it was a friendship. Her boyfriend seems to be aware of some of what was happening as well.

She also talks about being uncomfortable about him from the start, but keeps meeting him even though every time they meet up he touches her inappropriately.

I am not blaming the victim, she obviously feels very distressed about what has happened.

I just can't comprehend how you would get into that situation or how someone would have that much power over you. I think that just means I am lucky that I have not run into someone with that level of charisma.

Getting on my soapbox for a second, this is why we need to talk to young people about consent, how to ask for it, how to give it, but also trusting your instinct and how to say no if someone does not pass a vibe check.

I had the same thoughts! I also listened to the other podcast Claire did.

Also, she approached NG and told him about her money worries as he was expecting.
He offered to gift her an annual tax free payment (upper end of tax free allowance) for four years and she said “that’s generous” and then asked for all of the four payments at once - “to minimize contact”! But the why ask for money at all?

It seems that each woman took money from him. Why take money from your abuser?
And why reach out to many media outlets until you find one outlet that would publish your story? Why making it public AND approaching NG for an apology and money?

This seems very fishy to me. Not saying the women are lying, but it seems odd.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

There is a new episode of ' Master' an account from a women called Claire. She has already spoken to a different podcast.

The thing I don't understand about this account, is that Claire had a boyfriend and was having very intimate conversations with Gaiman, sending and getting pictures and having phone sex, yet seems to maintain that it was a friendship. My boyfriend is not controlling, but he would absolutely hit the roof if he found out I was casually doing that with another person, celebrity or not, whilst claiming it was a friendship. Her boyfriend seems to be aware of some of what was happening as well.

She also talks about being uncomfortable about him from the start, but keeps meeting him even though every time they meet up he touches her inappropriately.

I am not blaming the victim, she obviously feels very distressed about what has happened.

I just can't comprehend how you would get into that situation or how someone would have that much power over you. I think that just means I am lucky that I have not run into someone with that level of charisma.

Getting on my soapbox for a second, this is why we need to talk to young people about consent, how to ask for it, how to give it, but also trusting your instinct and how to say no if someone does not pass a vibe check.

The trouble with free love is it's not free. It's just very cheap. Couples like Gaiman and Palmer try to make a virtue of non-monogamy/polyamory as if they have a fairy wand to make all the normal human emotions disappear. And I think that lifestyle attracts idealistic and vulnerable people who are good at justifying all manner of things in the name of right-on, until they end up in a right mess. It also attracts flakes and drama queens and yes, abusers too. Talk of consent has to include things like peer pressure and desire to please and hero worship, because none of these are good reasons to consent to sexual activity.

 

[salatblader]

There is a new episode of ' Master' an account from a women called Claire. She has already spoken to a different podcast.

The thing I don't understand about this account, is that Claire had a boyfriend and was having very intimate conversations with Gaiman, sending and getting pictures and having phone sex, yet seems to maintain that it was a friendship. My boyfriend is not controlling, but he would absolutely hit the roof if he found out I was casually doing that with another person, celebrity or not, whilst claiming it was a friendship. Her boyfriend seems to be aware of some of what was happening as well.

She also talks about being uncomfortable about him from the start, but keeps meeting him even though every time they meet up he touches her inappropriately.

I am not blaming the victim, she obviously feels very distressed about what has happened.

I just can't comprehend how you would get into that situation or how someone would have that much power over you. I think that just means I am lucky that I have not run into someone with that level of charisma.

Getting on my soapbox for a second, this is why we need to talk to young people about consent, how to ask for it, how to give it, but also trusting your instinct and how to say no if someone does not pass a vibe check.

You say you don't want to blame the victim, but you are. She was 18 when she met Gaiman, who was a 40-something huge celebrity, and she was his fan.

Predators like Gaiman carefully choose their victims to make sure the ones they try something with are extremely vulnerable and haven't had the life experience to clock things that might be crossing a boundary. That way, they can groom them and move their boundaries so that they can take advantage of them.

She was a teenager and very young adult who trusted a self-proclaimed feminist who had spoken out about SA a lot, who always said the correct things in public. In this context and this level of power imbalance, saying she should have known better is ridiculous. And she did say no once he made advances, but he ignored her.
---

This reminds me of Baby Reindeer when (spoiler alert) he keeps meeting up with the older guy from the TV industry even when he's getting abused by him.

You've obviously never heard of the fawn trauma response

 

[jobackhorsewoman]

You say you don't want to blame the victim, but you are. She was 18 when she met Gaiman, who was a 40-something huge celebrity, and she was his fan.

Predators like Gaiman carefully choose their victims to make sure the ones they try something with are extremely vulnerable and haven't had the life experience to clock things that might be crossing a boundary. That way, they can groom them and move their boundaries so that they can take advantage of them.

She was a teenager and very young adult who trusted a self-proclaimed feminist who had spoken out about SA a lot, who always said the correct things in public. In this context and this level of power imbalance, saying she should have known better is ridiculous. And she did say no once he made advances, but he ignored her.
---


You've obviously never heard of the fawn trauma response

I have - sorry, that's what I meant with the Baby Reindeer reference. That it showed why people keep going back. I thought it did a good job of portraying that side of trauma. But I am lucky enough that I don't have personal experience, and I'm not an expert, so maybe that isn't what it's meant to show? But for me it increased understanding for the victim's point of view.

Edit - I was referring to the bit in BR with the older male. Sorry should have made it clearer in my first comment