Lucy Letby Case #73

[AllieBee]

@Tofino here you go. People saying the unit wasn’t badly run and there’s no evidence the care was poor

Why do i get the feeling you're just on here to stir the tit?

 

[VicksterIcon]

After my mother watched that god awful
ch 5 documentary she was of the opinion that Letby could be innocent. I have since brought her round to the “right side” as today discussing it with my sister who says she is guilty as hell my mother agreed!! I had sent her the Double Jeopardy podcast to listen to and I’ve sent her The Trial podcast too. So hopefully that is one person I have converted. My sister knew all about the evidence and not just the “rostas” that all those keep banging on about. I felt quiet proud!!

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Why do i get the feeling you're just on here to stir the tit?

I just wanted to back up what I was saying. I’d said some people didn’t accept those things, was told they did and then you had great timing for me to be able evidence they didn’t and I’d not just invented that. That’s all.

I don’t think some people on the thread do accept those things and that’s fine, we all have different opinions. We should just be allowed to talk about aspects we disagree on without instantly jumping to “you must think she’s innocent of everything!”.

 

[Tilly Kister]

That poster said that there could have been babies that died because of poor care in the hospital as a theory the conspiracists can’t entertain. You’ve said the hospital caused deaths. So are you suggesting the babies not brought into trial died because the hospital “caused” them to or that the babies in this case died because the hospital caused them to?

Oh you added that little bit at the end? You are full of self importance literally you cannot post without referencing me calling you out for supporting a lot of the Gill theories. Sorry it upset you so much that you have to reference it every single time you post

Tbf she said it's likely that the hospital being poorly run caused deaths. It is. A poorly run neonatal intensive care unit - which this certainly was or she'd never had got away with killing a dozen babies - a poorly run unit is very likely to have contributed to adverse patient outcomes. That's what poorly run medical facilities do.

The hospital administrative team was tit. They were lax about staff discipline, they were chronically understaffed & their refusal to heed the warnings of so many senior medical staff was heinous. By the same token, the doctors who put their career prospects ahead of their duty of care to patients were also at fault. Dr Jayram says that himself. I actually believe he's tortured by that knowledge and it perhaps explains his move into the far less risky field of TV doctoring. He's not going to be confronting many life or death situations in the green room of Good Morning now is he?
Of all of the doctors it seems to me that he is the one having a real crisis of conscience about not having done that. I feel a great deal of compassion for him because I cannot imagine the burden he must be carrying. The man looks like he's aged 20 years since photos of him in 2017.

They ought to have gone to the police as a block despite being told by the hospital to shut it. At that point they ought to have also reported the admin staff for complicity and covering up to my way of thinking. Instead those morons got to cover their own incompetent arses by finally relenting and being the ones to call in the law.

Lucy Letby is without any doubt a serial killer of children. However, once she had begun, those children were failed by many people whose inaction cleared the way for her to keep killing.

 

[SarahG300]

There’s a new article on the times

Calls to free Lucy Letby fuelled by ‘lies and misinformation’, say pa…

archived 7 Sep 2024 18:31:00 UTC

archive.is

Not sure if this will work but sure someone more tech savvy can!

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Tbf she said it's likely that the hospital being poorly run caused deaths. It is. A poorly run neonatal intensive care unit - which this certainly was or she'd never had got away with killing a dozen babies - a poorly run unit is very likely to have contributed to adverse patient outcomes. That's what poorly run medical facilities do.

The hospital administrative team was tit. They were lax about staff discipline, they were chronically understaffed & their refusal to heed the warnings of so many senior medical staff was heinous. By the same token, the doctors who put their career prospects ahead of their duty of care to patients were also at fault. Dr Jayram says that himself. I actually believe he's tortured by that knowledge and it perhaps explains his move into the far less risky field of TV doctoring. He's not going to be confronting many life or death situations in the green room of Good Morning now is he?
Of all of the doctors it seems to me that he is the one having a real crisis of conscience about not having done that. I feel a great deal of compassion for him because I cannot imagine the burden he must be carrying. The man looks like he's aged 20 years since photos of him in 2017.

They ought to have gone to the police as a block despite being told by the hospital to shut it. At that point they ought to have also reported the admin staff for complicity and covering up to my way of thinking. Instead those morons got to cover their own incompetent arses by finally relenting and being the ones to call in the law.

Lucy Letby is without any doubt a serial killer of children. However, once she had begun, those children were failed by many people whose inaction cleared the way for her to keep killing.

Thank you for being able to explain what I meant far more eloquently than I managed!

I do have compassion for the doctors who attempted to speak out including Dr J, but there were other doctors such as the one Letby was seemingly in love with who didn’t listen to them. I principally blame the management but not every doctor on the unit is without reproach and I did think the fact there was poor care on the unit (or sub-optimal care if that’s a better term but to me it’s the same thing) was accepted generally in the trial by both sides which to me is evidence of it.

 

[#notanadad]

Wishing I’d never posted that now …

 

[Tofino]

@Tofino here you go. People saying the unit wasn’t badly run and there’s no evidence the care was poor

Allie seems to be responding to your post saying that the poor care likely contributed to the later deaths Lucy was charged with. Which they didn’t. There also seems to be cross conversations going on in terms of management, doctors and the unit in general.

tbh though I think the reason you get the reaction you do is because you only seem to post on this thread when you want to have a pop at posters on here. And it comes across like you want to defend the conspiracy theorists who really do apply any slight doctor error as the cause of death or any slight trial error as a miscarriage of justice which is simply ludicrous and not reasonable debate.
---

There’s a new article on the times

Calls to free Lucy Letby fuelled by ‘lies and misinformation’, say pa…

archived 7 Sep 2024 18:31:00 UTC

archive.is

Not sure if this will work but sure someone more tech savvy can!

I hope charges result from the physical attack and I presume threats, and that it is widely reported.

I wonder who it is. Dewi Evans seems to be the main target for their hostility.

 

[AllieBee]

I just wanted to back up what I was saying. I’d said some people didn’t accept those things, was told they did and then you had great timing for me to be able evidence they didn’t and I’d not just invented that. That’s all.

I don’t think some people on the thread do accept those things and that’s fine, we all have different opinions. We should just be allowed to talk about aspects we disagree on without instantly jumping to “you must think she’s innocent of everything!”.

I don't think it's your opinions, it's the way you're putting them across so aggressively and defensively. Always prefacing each post with a dig at other tattlers. Not really any need for it, in my opinion. Anyway said my bit, bowing out now

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Allie seems to be responding to your post saying that the poor care likely contributed to the later deaths Lucy was charged with. Which they didn’t. There also seems to be cross conversations going on in terms of management, doctors and the unit in general.

tbh though I think the reason you get the reaction you do is because you only seem to post on this thread when you want to have a pop at posters on here. And it comes across like you want to defend the conspiracy theorists who really do apply any slight doctor error as the cause of death or any slight trial error as a miscarriage of justice which is simply ludicrous and not reasonable debate.
---


I hope charges result from the physical attack and I presume threats, and that it is widely reported.

I wonder who it is. Dewi Evans seems to be the main target for their hostility.

I’m genuinely not trying to be argumentative here, just explain what I meant - to me allowing someone who has had serious complaints made against them to continue to work on wards is poor care that did contribute to the later deaths.

Poor care to me is wider than physical taking care, it’s the entire system on the unit which did contribute IMO to the later deaths. A unit that was functioning well and providing good care would likely (not certainly) have identified Letby earlier and thus been able to prevent the later deaths by removing her.

 

[Tofino]

There’s a new article on the times

Calls to free Lucy Letby fuelled by ‘lies and misinformation’, say pa…

archived 7 Sep 2024 18:31:00 UTC

archive.is

Not sure if this will work but sure someone more tech savvy can!

I’ve just read the article in full. I’m glad they gave the parents an opportunity to speak out but it’s still a heavily weighted article towards the doubt.

This made me

Hal Halley, in his sixties, travelled from Leeds to watch proceedings from the public gallery. “I doubt very much she did it,” he told The Sunday Times. “At best, it’s conjecture.” When he saw reports on television from the original trial he became “fascinated” by the case but he “didn’t really know why”. “I thought she was a very attractive individual,” he said.

and then you have to get to the very end of the lengthy article to read this:

The parents of babies E and F will never forget their experiences at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
They said: “It is infuriating to hear some people say, ‘I just have a feeling she hasn’t done anything.’ Serial killers often hide in plain sight — that’s how they manage to go undetected. They blend in and manipulate those around them. It is deeply disrespectful to the prosecution, defence, judge, and jury — who dedicated nearly a year of their lives to fulfilling their public duty with care and diligence. They took the necessary time to carefully consider all the evidence before reaching their verdicts.

“We have seen all the comments circulating on social media and in the mainstream news, and we find them both hurtful and distasteful.”

 

[Hazara04]

Allie seems to be responding to your post saying that the poor care likely contributed to the later deaths Lucy was charged with. Which they didn’t. There also seems to be cross conversations going on in terms of management, doctors and the unit in general.

tbh though I think the reason you get the reaction you do is because you only seem to post on this thread when you want to have a pop at posters on here. And it comes across like you want to defend the conspiracy theorists who really do apply any slight doctor error as the cause of death or any slight trial error as a miscarriage of justice which is simply ludicrous and not reasonable debate.
---


I hope charges result from the physical attack and I presume threats, and that it is widely reported.

I wonder who it is. Dewi Evans seems to be the main target for their hostility.

Yes I hope they are punished. The social media complaint might be from Dr Ravi as he receives a lot of abuse.

It is terrible that the parents of baby E and F have had to comment on this, they have suffered enough I hope some of the conspiracy theories read this, especially the politicians and tv personalities and stop using their platform to spread misinformation.
---
@Tofino yes it made me too. They are clearly blind as well as thick.

 

[sebanna]

I’ve just read the article in full. I’m glad they gave the parents an opportunity to speak out but it’s still a heavily weighted article towards the doubt.

This made me

Hal Halley, in his sixties, travelled from Leeds to watch proceedings from the public gallery. “I doubt very much she did it,” he told The Sunday Times. “At best, it’s conjecture.” When he saw reports on television from the original trial he became “fascinated” by the case but he “didn’t really know why”. “I thought she was a very attractive individual,” he said.

and then you have to get to the very end of the lengthy article to read this:

The parents of babies E and F will never forget their experiences at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
They said: “It is infuriating to hear some people say, ‘I just have a feeling she hasn’t done anything.’ Serial killers often hide in plain sight — that’s how they manage to go undetected. They blend in and manipulate those around them. It is deeply disrespectful to the prosecution, defence, judge, and jury — who dedicated nearly a year of their lives to fulfilling their public duty with care and diligence. They took the necessary time to carefully consider all the evidence before reaching their verdicts.

“We have seen all the comments circulating on social media and in the mainstream news, and we find them both hurtful and distasteful.”

Poor parents. They have been through hell. The amount of rubbish that has been posted by uninformed people is unbelievable. I bet most of the people criticising the evidence knows nothing about what happened to baby F, the jury were told all about it and the defence agreed they were poisoned.

Dr Jayaram has been bullied on social media there was a very rude thread criticising him in the title on Mumsnet.

 

[Tofino]

Yes I hope they are punished. The social media complaint might be from Dr Ravi as he receives a lot of abuse.

It is terrible that the parents of baby E and F have had to comment on this, they have suffered enough ☹ I hope some of the conspiracy theories read this, especially the politicians and tv personalities and stop using their platform to spread misinformation.

And baby E and F’s mum was one of the strongest witnesses for the entire trial when testifying about baby E, imo. Her testimony, backed up by her husband, phone records and feeding schedule, proved without a shadow of a doubt that Letby was lying and falsifying events/records. It angers me so much that MSM don’t ever mention this.

I didn’t see her testify but I saw the sketch she had made for the police with the location of the blood around baby E’s mouth and you can just not be mistaken with something like that. And whilst even as a parent you may misremember details, Letby suggested this never happened at all. Why would a parent just imagine a traumatic event that never happened ffs?

 

[AllieBee]

I’ve just read the article in full. I’m glad they gave the parents an opportunity to speak out but it’s still a heavily weighted article towards the doubt.

This made me

Hal Halley, in his sixties, travelled from Leeds to watch proceedings from the public gallery. “I doubt very much she did it,” he told The Sunday Times. “At best, it’s conjecture.” When he saw reports on television from the original trial he became “fascinated” by the case but he “didn’t really know why”. “I thought she was a very attractive individual,” he said.

and then you have to get to the very end of the lengthy article to read this:

The parents of babies E and F will never forget their experiences at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
They said: “It is infuriating to hear some people say, ‘I just have a feeling she hasn’t done anything.’ Serial killers often hide in plain sight — that’s how they manage to go undetected. They blend in and manipulate those around them. It is deeply disrespectful to the prosecution, defence, judge, and jury — who dedicated nearly a year of their lives to fulfilling their public duty with care and diligence. They took the necessary time to carefully consider all the evidence before reaching their verdicts.

“We have seen all the comments circulating on social media and in the mainstream news, and we find them both hurtful and distasteful.”

Hal Halley is representative of all the Letby simps. Ageing, single men who find her attractive and have a bit of a saviour complex, not very intelligent, socially and sexually inadequate and are not able to form long term relationships.

 

[MmmB777]

Tbf she said it's likely that the hospital being poorly run caused deaths. It is. A poorly run neonatal intensive care unit - which this certainly was or she'd never had got away with killing a dozen babies - a poorly run unit is very likely to have contributed to adverse patient outcomes. That's what poorly run medical facilities do.

The hospital administrative team was tit. They were lax about staff discipline, they were chronically understaffed & their refusal to heed the warnings of so many senior medical staff was heinous. By the same token, the doctors who put their career prospects ahead of their duty of care to patients were also at fault. Dr Jayram says that himself. I actually believe he's tortured by that knowledge and it perhaps explains his move into the far less risky field of TV doctoring. He's not going to be confronting many life or death situations in the green room of Good Morning now is he?
Of all of the doctors it seems to me that he is the one having a real crisis of conscience about not having done that. I feel a great deal of compassion for him because I cannot imagine the burden he must be carrying. The man looks like he's aged 20 years since photos of him in 2017.

They ought to have gone to the police as a block despite being told by the hospital to shut it. At that point they ought to have also reported the admin staff for complicity and covering up to my way of thinking. Instead those morons got to cover their own incompetent arses by finally relenting and being the ones to call in the law.

Lucy Letby is without any doubt a serial killer of children. However, once she had begun, those children were failed by many people whose inaction cleared the way for her to keep killing.

I don’t believe the hospital was drastically more poorly run than other hospitals or units. Had they been shown to be failing? I’m sure they wanted more staff and more consultants. Whose fault is it if they didn’t have them? There’s a huge amount of factors at play there. Beyond even management level.

When does this poor care and failing unit start and end? Is it much like the mythical tap virus letby shift specific infection in that it only operates during this period? And magically stopped before and after? Is there evidence of this terrible unit prior to the indictment period and after Letby’s dismissal? How many units would look this way if you put a magnifying glass on their practice for a year? By the very nature of healthcare serial killers, the way they operate, there will always be this picture or staff missing things. Some of them will be small. Some of them will be alarmingly huge. All will only be glaringly obvious with hindsight. I just can’t compute the idea that there shouldn’t be this picture of staff confused, manipulated and missing things. So after baby A, the consultants should have all staged a sit in at the police station? Then the other staff that were there for B should have noticed. Then the differing staff for C should have noticed. Everybody should have been linking things whilst also keeping other prem babies alive? Should it have been the responsibility of those on for 1 suspicious incident or 3 or is it 4, what’s the magic number to accuse someone? Should the nurse that said “there was something strange” about baby A, B C and D have gone to the police? I get what people are saying but what does it look like in reality. I think one of the papers I read on HCSK discusses this issue that ultimately these people are only caught by a pattern forming by the very nature of these crimes and that is the problem that for a pattern to occur, multiple people are harmed.

I understand doctors and the nhs can make mistakes, I’ve been on the receiving end of a few. My experience is that they generally actively encourage you to share what’s happened. My neighbours’ granddaughter nearly died of strep throat. Lots of failures on the hospitals behalf. They encouraged them to take action in order to push through changes. I think there’s lots of evidence that the staff were absolutely and quickly responded to the incidents by actively encouraging reviews both internal and external. I think realistically that’s all they could do for some time. They would be unlikely to be taken seriously by police because of hunches. Shipman had a GP colleague that tried to raise with police that she was signing off a hell of a lot of death certificates where the patient died at home in the afternoon and that didn’t feel typical. It was a hunch. Police essentially ignored her. Despite it being a local joke almost that he was a very good doctor but “Doctor death”.

The consultants tried with the knowledge they had and they also would have found it extremely hard to truly think somebody was murdering little babies. I don’t think we know enough about what Noname knew about the other consultants suspicions do we? We know he told her she had nothing to worry about after a meeting regarding the triplets but was there any evidence to suggest he knew what Breary thought of what was going on? I think the guy is a prick and an idiot but the idea he had an opportunity to realise what Letby had done and report her is a bit extreme. It’s a bit like when wives of serial killers get heat for not knowing their husbands were strangling prostitutes instead of the murdering bastard.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. With all the evidence we have been able to look at and scrutinise over ten months of course we can say we’d have broken down the door to the police station. Many of the pieces of evidence and statements we have heard the doctors were also hearing for the first time at that trial. Finding out for the first time. We also aren’t managing hundreds of patients whilst we digest this info. Causing death is a harsh term imo. I also don’t trust it was used in good faith regarding the consultants and think there’s evidence for that.

As for Dr J and his tv career.. I don’t see the relevance in what you’re saying to be honest and the implication he protected his career is fairly offensive do you mean because he didn’t risk his job to go and knock on Chester police station constantly or ditch his duty of care to all his other patients (of which there are maybe 1000+) and walk out?
Didn’t his tv career predate the Letby stuff? I’ve no idea because it’s never felt relevant to me. I think we also have absolutely no idea how Gibbs and the other consultants are currently feeling to make an assessment on their “crisis of conscience”? What should they be doing? What do we know about what they’re doing? Perhaps people would happier if they killed themselves as some of Beverly Allitt’s colleagues did
I’m happy to agree to disagree. I bit because of the relentless baiting about the fact I’ve called out some lines plucked straight from the Science on Trial type BS. I just think if someone is so adamant of Letby’s guilt they could perhaps raise their heads at times other than to question everything else, suggest incidents were tagged on and claim deaths when letby wasn’t there are relevant etc etc.

 

[Hazara04]

And baby E and F’s mum was one of the strongest witnesses for the entire trial when testifying about baby E, imo. Her testimony, backed up by her husband, phone records and feeding schedule, proved without a shadow of a doubt that Letby was lying and falsifying events/records. It angers me so much that MSM don’t ever mention this.

I didn’t see her testify but I saw the sketch she had made for the police with the location of the blood around baby E’s mouth and you can just not be mistaken with something like that. And whilst even as a parent you may misremember details, Letby suggested this never happened at all. Why would a parent just imagine a traumatic event that never happened ffs?

The arrogance of Letby's supporters thinking they show best is infuriating. They never acknowledge the witness testimonies like that of baby E and F's mother that are one of the most compelling pieces of evidence. Yet they harp on about a chart that was shown twice and post it notes that they spent 5 mins on during month trial.
---

Hal Halley is representative of all the Letby simps. Ageing, single men who find her attractive and have a bit of a saviour complex, not very intelligent, socially and sexually inadequate and are not able to form long term relationships.

Wouldn't be surprised it he also has a huge chip on his shoulder with those in authority and has had a run in with the law. This seems to be a common theme.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

I don’t believe the hospital was drastically more poorly run than other hospitals or units. Had they been shown to be failing? I’m sure they wanted more staff and more consultants. Whose fault is it if they didn’t have them? There’s a huge amount of factors at play there. Beyond even management level.

When does this poor care and failing unit start and end? Is it much like the mythical tap virus letby shift specific infection in that it only operates during this period? And magically stopped before and after? Is there evidence of this terrible unit prior to the indictment period and after Letby’s dismissal? How many units would look this way if you put a magnifying glass on their practice for a year? By the very nature of healthcare serial killers, the way they operate, there will always be this picture or staff missing things. Some of them will be small. Some of them will be alarmingly huge. All will only be glaringly obvious with hindsight. I just can’t compute the idea that there shouldn’t be this picture of staff confused, manipulated and missing things. So after baby A, the consultants should have all staged a sit in at the police station? Then the other staff that were there for B should have noticed. Then the differing staff for C should have noticed. Everybody should have been linking things whilst also keeping other prem babies alive? Should it have been the responsibility of those on for 1 suspicious incident or 3 or is it 4, what’s the magic number to accuse someone? Should the nurse that said “there was something strange” about baby A, B C and D have gone to the police? I get what people are saying but what does it look like in reality. I think one of the papers I read on HCSK discusses this issue that ultimately these people are only caught by a pattern forming by the very nature of these crimes and that is the problem that for a pattern to occur, multiple people are harmed.

I understand doctors and the nhs can make mistakes, I’ve been on the receiving end of a few. My experience is that they generally actively encourage you to share what’s happened. My neighbours’ granddaughter nearly died of strep throat. Lots of failures on the hospitals behalf. They encouraged them to take action in order to push through changes. I think there’s lots of evidence that the staff were absolutely and quickly responded to the incidents by actively encouraging reviews both internal and external. I think realistically that’s all they could do for some time. They would be unlikely to be taken seriously by police because of hunches. Shipman had a GP colleague that tried to raise with police that she was signing off a hell of a lot of death certificates where the patient died at home in the afternoon and that didn’t feel typical. It was a hunch. Police essentially ignored her. Despite it being a local joke almost that he was a very good doctor but “Doctor death”.

The consultants tried with the knowledge they had and they also would have found it extremely hard to truly think somebody was murdering little babies. I don’t think we know enough about what Noname knew about the other consultants suspicions do we? We know he told her she had nothing to worry about after a meeting regarding the triplets but was there any evidence to suggest he knew what Breary thought of what was going on? I think the guy is a prick and an idiot but the idea he had an opportunity to realise what Letby had done and report her is a bit extreme. It’s a bit like when wives of serial killers get heat for not knowing their husbands were strangling prostitutes instead of the murdering bastard.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. With all the evidence we have been able to look at and scrutinise over ten months of course we can say we’d have broken down the door to the police station. Many of the pieces of evidence and statements we have heard the doctors were also hearing for the first time at that trial. Finding out for the first time. We also aren’t managing hundreds of patients whilst we digest this info. Causing death is a harsh term imo. I also don’t trust it was used in good faith regarding the consultants and think there’s evidence for that.

As for Dr J and his tv career.. I don’t see the relevance in what you’re saying to be honest and the implication he protected his career is fairly offensive do you mean because he didn’t risk his job to go and knock on Chester police station constantly or ditch his duty of care to all his other patients (of which there are maybe 1000+) and walk out?
Didn’t his tv career predate the Letby stuff? I’ve no idea because it’s never felt relevant to me. I think we also have absolutely no idea how Gibbs and the other consultants are currently feeling to make an assessment on their “crisis of conscience”? What should they be doing? What do we know about what they’re doing? Perhaps people would happier if they killed themselves as some of Beverly Allitt’s colleagues did
I’m happy to agree to disagree. I bit because of the relentless baiting about the fact I’ve called out some lines plucked straight from the Science on Trial type BS. I just think if someone is so adamant of Letby’s guilt they could perhaps raise their heads at times other than to question everything else, suggest incidents were tagged on and claim deaths when letby wasn’t there are relevant etc etc.

Can I just say, I never picked on the consultants in my posts today. I said the hospital meaning the entire structure including and indeed primarily the management. I wasn’t attacking the doctors who spoke out and I did specifically say the hospital were at fault due to not listening to them.

I was not in any way attacking the consultants who spoke out and tried to raise the alarm when I said the hospital, and I am honestly sorry if that’s how it came across.

 

[sebanna]

Dr Jayaram and his colleagues are probably traumatised by what happened. They do their jobs to save little babies but were put into a situation where they couldn't keep those babies safe. As time went on they worked out what was happening but the managers didn't listen. They've been put through the stress of a court case and are now being made out to be bullies by social media idiots, who think Lucy looks too sweet to be a murderer.

 

[Tofino]

I don’t believe the hospital was drastically more poorly run than other hospitals or units. Had they been shown to be failing? I’m sure they wanted more staff and more consultants. Whose fault is it if they didn’t have them? There’s a huge amount of factors at play there. Beyond even management level.

When does this poor care and failing unit start and end? Is it much like the mythical tap virus letby shift specific infection in that it only operates during this period? And magically stopped before and after? Is there evidence of this terrible unit prior to the indictment period and after Letby’s dismissal? How many units would look this way if you put a magnifying glass on their practice for a year? By the very nature of healthcare serial killers, the way they operate, there will always be this picture or staff missing things. Some of them will be small. Some of them will be alarmingly huge. All will only be glaringly obvious with hindsight. I just can’t compute the idea that there shouldn’t be this picture of staff confused, manipulated and missing things. So after baby A, the consultants should have all staged a sit in at the police station? Then the other staff that were there for B should have noticed. Then the differing staff for C should have noticed. Everybody should have been linking things whilst also keeping other prem babies alive? Should it have been the responsibility of those on for 1 suspicious incident or 3 or is it 4, what’s the magic number to accuse someone? Should the nurse that said “there was something strange” about baby A, B C and D have gone to the police? I get what people are saying but what does it look like in reality. I think one of the papers I read on HCSK discusses this issue that ultimately these people are only caught by a pattern forming by the very nature of these crimes and that is the problem that for a pattern to occur, multiple people are harmed.

I understand doctors and the nhs can make mistakes, I’ve been on the receiving end of a few. My experience is that they generally actively encourage you to share what’s happened. My neighbours’ granddaughter nearly died of strep throat. Lots of failures on the hospitals behalf. They encouraged them to take action in order to push through changes. I think there’s lots of evidence that the staff were absolutely and quickly responded to the incidents by actively encouraging reviews both internal and external. I think realistically that’s all they could do for some time. They would be unlikely to be taken seriously by police because of hunches. Shipman had a GP colleague that tried to raise with police that she was signing off a hell of a lot of death certificates where the patient died at home in the afternoon and that didn’t feel typical. It was a hunch. Police essentially ignored her. Despite it being a local joke almost that he was a very good doctor but “Doctor death”.

The consultants tried with the knowledge they had and they also would have found it extremely hard to truly think somebody was murdering little babies. I don’t think we know enough about what Noname knew about the other consultants suspicions do we? We know he told her she had nothing to worry about after a meeting regarding the triplets but was there any evidence to suggest he knew what Breary thought of what was going on? I think the guy is a prick and an idiot but the idea he had an opportunity to realise what Letby had done and report her is a bit extreme. It’s a bit like when wives of serial killers get heat for not knowing their husbands were strangling prostitutes instead of the murdering bastard.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. With all the evidence we have been able to look at and scrutinise over ten months of course we can say we’d have broken down the door to the police station. Many of the pieces of evidence and statements we have heard the doctors were also hearing for the first time at that trial. Finding out for the first time. We also aren’t managing hundreds of patients whilst we digest this info. Causing death is a harsh term imo. I also don’t trust it was used in good faith regarding the consultants and think there’s evidence for that.

As for Dr J and his tv career.. I don’t see the relevance in what you’re saying to be honest and the implication he protected his career is fairly offensive do you mean because he didn’t risk his job to go and knock on Chester police station constantly or ditch his duty of care to all his other patients (of which there are maybe 1000+) and walk out?
Didn’t his tv career predate the Letby stuff? I’ve no idea because it’s never felt relevant to me. I think we also have absolutely no idea how Gibbs and the other consultants are currently feeling to make an assessment on their “crisis of conscience”? What should they be doing? What do we know about what they’re doing? Perhaps people would happier if they killed themselves as some of Beverly Allitt’s colleagues did
I’m happy to agree to disagree. I bit because of the relentless baiting about the fact I’ve called out some lines plucked straight from the Science on Trial type BS. I just think if someone is so adamant of Letby’s guilt they could perhaps raise their heads at times other than to question everything else, suggest incidents were tagged on and claim deaths when letby wasn’t there are relevant etc etc.

yes just for clarity when I say badly run unit I mean in terms of senior management that ignored the consultants concerns time and time again. I can understand they can’t have been expected to accept there was a killer but they didn’t even investigate the concerns being raised that may have identified a reason to suspend Letby sooner. I really am quite angry at the way the consultants were treated by senior management.

They unit/shift managers that allowed Letby to use her phone all shift long, undermine her colleagues, ignore instructions from her seniors etc. Potentially staffing issues but I don’t know for sure if that compromised care.

But none of this caused the deaths Letby was charged with.

the suboptimal care discussed in the trial (things like delays to starting antibiotics, tube placement problems etc) I expect are not unique to COCH, and didn’t cause the deaths.

I don’t think any blame can be placed on the Gang of Four. I’m sure they wish they had done things differently but also if they had done nothing at all the situation would be even worse. They have my full support.