J. K. Rowling #2 JK and the Chamber of Mysogyny

[thatstupidcat]

You are so completely wrong it’s hilarious

You obviously feel attacked by someone questioning your opinions. Perhaps I will leave you to your safe space echo chamber

Okay, we got a live one.

With regards to all the points made by everyone so far, why do YOU, as a self-identified woman, feel it’s important that all other women should put an end to their sex-segregated spaces (wards, clinics, refuges etc)?

Bonus points for not dragging the intersex community into it...

 

[Buf728]

I wonder how many have you have actually spoken to a transgender or gender non conforming person. Every one I know accepts that their biological sex cannot change but their dysphoria can be managed by changing their biological sex markers. That takes literally nothing away from biological females. They would never campaign against FGM issues and I am yet to see a credible source to back this up?

Recognising that not everyone who has a vagina presents as female is a life or death matter. What happens if a trans man is rejected from receiving medical care because his gender has been legally changed to male on all documents? He needs access to things like cervical smears which would be denied to him if we all lived in the fantasy land that everyone who has a vagina identifies as female.

I have a number of people in my social circles who identify as either non-binary or trans. Some are of the nature you describe, but one I just give up with even speaking to now, as they are of the extreme views that most on this thread are talking about. I accidentally called them “she” and although I apologised (I have grown up with them so it’s a difficult habit to get out of) they stormed off and kicked up a huge fuss, accusing me of being transphobic. The vast majority would not act this way and would understand you are trying your best, but some are absolutely exasperating to interact with when they are this extreme to jump on any minor accident as bigotry. I don’t think for one second anyone on here is disagreeing with what the vast majority of trans people believe, but rather the small minority that seem to be shouting the loudest across social media over anyone that attempts an intelligent debate.

I work in healthcare and it’s such a difficult process to even wade through. Some don’t tell you and then get offended when you ask medical questions that are related to their biological sex, even though without asking those questions it is putting their health at risk. The vast majority are open and acknowledge this though. I did once have someone who outright questioned after the consultation why I hadn’t asked them about cervical smears (maybe because I can tell you were formerly male and you don’t have a cervix??) - they got uptight about the fact that I clearly didn’t view them as “passing” so they challenged me on it. It’s just an absolute minefield and with people shutting down a debate on it it’s getting even harder.

My personal opinion is trans rights and women’s rights are separate. I believe in both, but when you attempt to smush them together like current wokeness would have you believe you erase another. We should be allies to each other, not pretending we are the same.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Some non binary people claim that misgendering someone- even accidentally- is an act of violence. I'm sorry but there are women all over the world who are experiencing actual acts of violence on a daily basis so therefore I have no time for "misgendering is an act of violence".

 

[northernspaces]

I’m sorry, but cry me a bleeping river.

I’m more concerned about the mental stress that comes with being a woman. A real one. With a vagina and a uterus and everything that those things imply. Twenty six women were murdered by male partners in the U.K. during lockdown (until July - so probably more by now) and you want us to worry about men feeling like women because they wear heels and lipstick? Please.

Dysphoria is a mental disorder that literally drives people to suicide. It’s disgusting to see you talk about it so flippantly.

Recognising trans issues doesn’t mean you aren’t recognising injustices against cis women. I don’t want to play tit for tat when it comes to people’s lives but a quick google search shows trans women also face enormous amounts of violence at the hands of men. We can see the injustice in all of these things without one negating the other.

 

[Lanavalentine]

They are hardly trans activists. Online trolls?

You are misinformed. They absolutely ARE transactivists. That is how TRAs speak to women who believe in biological reality.

I don’t understand the opinions on this thread that trans people are trying to rob women of their biological reality. All trans people recognise that biological females have vaginas and vice versa. That is sex and it is the whole basis of transgenderism? Because they want to change their biological sex markers.

Well, you cannot actually change biological sex. That’s the problem. And you’ve missed the point - it’s not that transactivists want to pretend we don’t have vaginas, it’s that they don’t want us to talk about having vaginas, because it makes them feel negative feelings.

To use the words of Simone de Beauvoir, one is not born a woman, she becomes one. Gender is pushed on us from birth.

Agreed (although you’re kind of bastardizing that quote).

That is a separate issue from sex, which trans activists recognise.

Again, you’re misinformed. Many don’t recognise it’s a separate issue - the conflation of sex and gender, and furthermore, the erasure of biological sex as a concept, is rampant in TRA circles and their ideology. Look it up.

I wonder how many have you have actually spoken to a transgender or gender non conforming person.

Many women defending sex-based rights ARE gender non-conforming, and many of us speak to transpeople every day, both transpeople who agree with us (delightfully named “truscum” by TRAs) and those who don’t (in the form of arguments and debate).

Every one I know accepts that their biological sex cannot change but their dysphoria can be managed by changing their biological sex markers.

Then the transpeople you know are probably considered “truscum” by TRAs and therefore won’t be liked or respected by them. Please do some research into what the loudest voices in trans ideology are saying. Your information is outdated and clearly anectdotal.

That takes literally nothing away from biological females.

Your friends aren’t the ones who are trying to silence women, or invade their safe spaces while retaining male genitalia or making literally no effort to transition. These people exist and are in greater numbers and much louder than your friends.

They would never campaign against FGM issues and I am yet to see a credible source to back this up?

I gave you two. Please research what happened in Wyoming with TRAs attempting to block a bill against FGM. Again, your trans friends are clearly “truscum” and they are not the TRAs who are responsible for this attack on women. Research what is going on.

Recognising that not everyone who has a vagina presents as female is a life or death matter. What happens if a trans man is rejected from receiving medical care because his gender has been legally changed to male on all documents?

This isn’t what is happening though. Yet again, you are misinformed. TRAs actively WANT a hypothetical person like this to have male written on their medical records. Gender critical feminists don’t agree with this, because of the issues it can cause, as suggested.

This is also kind of a non sequitur because gender critical feminism includes transmen. We want them to have access to smears etc. The problem is in changing the language around women’s biology to accomodate their feelings, hence silencing women and their ability to accurately describe themselves.

He needs access to things like cervical smears which would be denied to him if we all lived in the fantasy land that everyone who has a vagina identifies as female.

You seem to have entirely misunderstood the gender critical point of view. It’s not about “identifying” as female. People who have vaginas ARE biologically female. You can live how you want, dress how you want, call yourself whatever you want - we don’t care. We do care that because of how you personally identify, we are being told it is “transphobic” to call ourselves women or say things like women have periods. We are constantly being told that penises are female. And we’re the ones denying biological reality??!

I appreciate that you are attempting to engage with the arguments here, but I don’t think you’re fully aware of what is going on. The fact you think the people attacking Jana Cornell are trolls, not TRAs, shows you are not fully aware of the extent of the current war on women.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Dysphoria is a mental disorder that literally drives people to suicide. It’s disgusting to see you talk about it so flippantly.

Recognising trans issues doesn’t mean you aren’t recognising injustices against cis women. I don’t want to play tit for tat when it comes to people’s lives but a quick google search shows trans women also face enormous amounts of violence at the hands of men. We can see the injustice in all of these things without one negating the other.

Not all trans people experience actual gender dysphoria. Remember how transsexual used to be the term for people with GD? That's now seen as a dirty word by the modern trans ideology as anyone can call themselves a woman if they fancy.

And as regard suicide, both the NHS and the Samaritans are very clear that suicide is a very complex process and should not be blamed on any one thing- only the person who took their own lives knows the full extent why. Therefore you should not say it "literally drives people to suicide"

 

[Lanavalentine]

Dysphoria is a mental disorder that literally drives people to suicide. It’s disgusting to see you talk about it so flippantly.

Recognising trans issues doesn’t mean you aren’t recognising injustices against cis women. I don’t want to play tit for tat when it comes to people’s lives but a quick google search shows trans women also face enormous amounts of violence at the hands of men. We can see the injustice in all of these things without one negating the other.

We DO see the injustice. It’s not us trying to negate them - they’re trying to negate us.

Women who speak up about male violence get pounced on with the “but what about trans?” brigade. They get told “don’t say female, it’s transphobic” etc. Women who try to hold discussion about how feminism can advance get invaded by TRAs centering themselves and objecting to anyone using biological language to describe women.

Also, you should be aware that transactivists are campaigning for dysphoria to not be considered a mental health issue, and most trans charities now say dysphoria is not necessary to be considered trans.

 

[Bastille]

Dysphoria is a mental disorder that literally drives people to suicide. It’s disgusting to see you talk about it so flippantly.

Cause of suicide is not recorded anywhere in the UK, there is no way of proving this to be true in any case. This is a disgusting argument.

Claiming it's a mental disorder is considered very transphobic, you need to keep up with what you are allowed to say if you're claiming inside knowledge of an issue, especially this one as there is a tendency to declare a hate crime has taken place if you slip up with words.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

If trans women weren’t trying to take anything away from women then the phrase “trans women are women” wouldn’t be so popular amongst the community and their supporters.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I also have no truck with the argument "those are just online trolls". TRAs who post on Twitter aren't bots- they're real people who walk among us.

 

[Lanavalentine]

I also have no truck with the argument "those are just online trolls". TRAs who post on Twitter aren't bots- they're real people who walk among us.

Yes, it’s a very convenient way of dismissing some of the most disgusting rhetoric against women, isn’t it?

They would never describe themselves as trolls. They think they’re bastions of justice and they shout us down because to them, we’re “on the wrong side of history”.

The reason they appear so vile in their language is probably narcissistic rage. Women refusing to bend to their every whim and demand riles them up, especially considering most are male to female trans, and therefore were socially conditioned male, and expect women to serve them and “just be nice”.

They show their true sex everytime they make rape and sexual abuse threats. I’ve never seen a gender critical feminist or radical feminist threaten violence, but it’s rampant amongst TRAs. Kind of depressingly hilarious that we’re told misgendering, talking about biology etc are “actual violence” when they’re posting selfies with their baseball bats, promising to “duck up TERFs”.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Exactly. Referring to someone by the wrong pronoun? An act of violence

Telling JKR to "suck my lady dick"? They'll say she was asking for it, the TERF

 

[Lanavalentine]

Exactly. Referring to someone by the wrong pronoun? An act of violence

Telling JKR to "suck my lady dick"? They'll say she was asking for it, the TERF

It’s so incredibly MALE. The difference between TRA and MRA is becoming more and more negligible.

I don’t want these people in spaces with vulnerable women, thanks very much.

 

[Buf728]

I’m actually genuinely confused with the whole ideology, because the whole gender thing I have an issue with. They constantly argue that sex and gender are separate, and that it is a gender issue and therefore has nothing to do with biological sex when people say that they are still men (for trans women).

Yet a lot of the male to female transitions I see have very exaggerated feminine characteristics - breast implants, long hair, makeup, nails painted, wearing dresses. It’s the perception of femininity that they seem to project that makes them feel more comfortable. However, these are just gender stereotypes of women, and biological women are hardly all like this. So, if it’s simply about gender stereotypes, is it not a vicious cycle that they are perpetuating by emphasising all of these characteristics to be on women, and not men? Why must you feel the need to “be” a woman, and identity as a woman, to be able to do this? Is that what makes you apparently a woman, just by gender stereotypes?

Hypothetically wouldn’t it simply be better for everyone if we abolished the whole concept of gender altogether and you just do what you want - i.e. you can still get breast implants, grow your hair out but also still agree you are a man, and still be separated into biological men and women regardless of how we look? And to work towards a society where it’s socially acceptable for a man to be feminine and do whatever they want (and vice versa for women)? I just don’t understand the logic behind this and then the jump to changing sex and then legally or otherwise stating you are a woman. Because it doesn’t seem to be an issue with their sex, but just the socially acceptable views of how men should look that they don’t connect with.

I haven’t really explained myself well as I can’t really think of the words of how to describe it, but I hope people see what I’m getting at I just see it as illogical so would welcome an explanation if there’s something I’m missing.

 

[Lanavalentine]

I’m actually genuinely confused with the whole ideology, because the whole gender thing I have an issue with. They constantly argue that sex and gender are separate, and that it is a gender issue and therefore has nothing to do with biological sex when people say that they are still men (for trans women).

Yet a lot of the male to female transitions I see have very exaggerated feminine characteristics - breast implants, long hair, makeup, nails painted, wearing dresses. It’s the perception of femininity that they seem to project that makes them feel more comfortable. However, these are just gender stereotypes of women, and biological women are hardly all like this. So, if it’s simply about gender stereotypes, is it not a vicious cycle that they are perpetuating by emphasising all of these characteristics to be on women, and not men? Why must you feel the need to “be” a woman, and identity as a woman, to be able to do this? Is that what makes you apparently a woman, just by gender stereotypes?

Hypothetically wouldn’t it simply be better for everyone if we abolished the whole concept of gender altogether and you just do what you want - i.e. you can still get breast implants, grow your hair out but also still agree you are a man, and still be separated into biological men and women regardless of how we look? And to work towards a society where it’s socially acceptable for a man to be feminine and do whatever they want (and vice versa for women)? I just don’t understand the logic behind this and then the jump to changing sex and then legally or otherwise stating you are a woman. Because it doesn’t seem to be an issue with their sex, but just the socially acceptable views of how men should look that they don’t connect with.

I haven’t really explained myself well as I can’t really think of the words of how to describe it, but I hope people see what I’m getting at I just see it as illogical so would welcome an explanation if there’s something I’m missing.

I don’t think you’re missing anything, you’re spot on and you’ve explained yourself well. I agree with every word. Gender critical (clue is in the name!) and radical feminists want exactly what you’ve described - the abolition of gender roles and stereotypes.

Sex is immutable, and it is important to recognise because of the biological differences between men and women (hence why we have sex-segregated toilets, sports etc). Gender is a social construct, and a tool of the patriarchy that oppresses women and negatively affects men (toxic masculinity).

We’d all be better off in a world where we acknowledged our sex, but lived without gender expectations. I love seeing men who know they are men but are comfortable with their love for wearing makeup, for example. The men who convince themselves they must be women because they love wearing makeup are the ones rolling us all back to rigid gender stereotypes.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

You're not missing anything, @Buf728 the whole thing is absurd

I'm annoyed that Simone DeBeauvoir's words have been appropriated and twisted to suit TRAs agenda. One becomes a woman by learned experiences, not by simply putting on a dress and "feeling like a woman"

 

[emmer_moans]

We do care that because of how you personally identify, we are being told it is “transphobic” to call ourselves women or say things like women have periods.

This. This! I am sick of seeing people on social media (especially Twitter) saying that if you don't agree with the newer suggested terminology, if you don't publicly denounce the latest celeb that has said something that you are categorically a TERF, hateful, scum. Today, an online friend on Twitter put 'I hope non of my friends will continue to follow JK else you should unfollow me'.

 

[Scotch Mist]

This. This! I am sick of seeing people on social media (especially Twitter) saying that if you don't agree with the newer suggested terminology, if you don't publicly denounce the latest celeb that has said something that you are categorically a TERF, hateful, scum. Today, an online friend on Twitter put 'I hope non of my friends will continue to follow JK else you should unfollow me'.

Why should that fuckwit think they have the right to tell other people who they should follow? What they should think? and what they should do?

Twitter is just mass bullying hell full of little echo chambers of people who think they're liberal but are really the complete opposite.

 

[I'm not a robot]

Can I just say that this is the most reasonable discussion I have seen on this subject. I enjoy learning about all perspectives, but could no longer follow the transgender thread due to how heated it gets. Thank you

 

[NitrousOxide]

I’m actually genuinely confused with the whole ideology, because the whole gender thing I have an issue with. They constantly argue that sex and gender are separate, and that it is a gender issue and therefore has nothing to do with biological sex when people say that they are still men (for trans women).

Yet a lot of the male to female transitions I see have very exaggerated feminine characteristics - breast implants, long hair, makeup, nails painted, wearing dresses. It’s the perception of femininity that they seem to project that makes them feel more comfortable. However, these are just gender stereotypes of women, and biological women are hardly all like this. So, if it’s simply about gender stereotypes, is it not a vicious cycle that they are perpetuating by emphasising all of these characteristics to be on women, and not men? Why must you feel the need to “be” a woman, and identity as a woman, to be able to do this? Is that what makes you apparently a woman, just by gender stereotypes?

Hypothetically wouldn’t it simply be better for everyone if we abolished the whole concept of gender altogether and you just do what you want - i.e. you can still get breast implants, grow your hair out but also still agree you are a man, and still be separated into biological men and women regardless of how we look? And to work towards a society where it’s socially acceptable for a man to be feminine and do whatever they want (and vice versa for women)? I just don’t understand the logic behind this and then the jump to changing sex and then legally or otherwise stating you are a woman. Because it doesn’t seem to be an issue with their sex, but just the socially acceptable views of how men should look that they don’t connect with.

I haven’t really explained myself well as I can’t really think of the words of how to describe it, but I hope people see what I’m getting at I just see it as illogical so would welcome an explanation if there’s something I’m missing.

Yes, you are spot on. The abolition of gender should be the aim for the liberation of both the sexes, and trans ideology pushes us further and further away from that, entrenching gender stereotypes and now butchering their bodies to fit those limits. Their bodies were never wrong in the first place; society's expectations were wrong. That's what needs to change.